The crucifixion of Jesus Christ

[SezMe]

None. Just like 99% of everything you post.

Feeling generous today, are we?

 

[Akhenaten]

Feeling generous today, are we?

He generally gets his user name correct.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

@Akuma Tennou, #266

I thought you were just pulling my leg, Akuma Tennou. I checked the Internet and there is really a Quercus crucifera, a silky oak species. I do not know how it looked like, whether it has “only two branches that form a cross with the trunk” or not.

<irrelevant fairytale snipped>

This is where Quercus crucifera is found:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...AEwAA#v=onepage&q="Quercus crucifera"&f=false

Quercus crucifera grows from altitude 800-1400 meters.

That old book is the only reference to q. crucifera I can find. It doesn't appear in Wikipedia's exhaustive-looking list of quercus species. The only vaguely relevant references to criciferae I can find are plants with cross-shaped flowers.


Putting that to one side, please consider PC: what would be the result of their being a tree native to that part of the world which happened to grow into the shape of a full sized crucifix? Even if everyone had somehow forgotten that the Romans used to use it to make crosses to execute people on.

The answer is obvious: Every single one of those trees would be an object of veneration, and everyone in the Christian world would know about them. They would be planted in front of every church in the world.

Be sure to let us know when you find one.

 

[Shiner]

That old book is the only reference to q. crucifera I can find. It doesn't appear in Wikipedia's exhaustive-looking list of quercus species. The only vaguely relevant references to criciferae I can find are plants with cross-shaped flowers.


Putting that to one side, please consider PC: what would be the result of their being a tree native to that part of the world which happened to grow into the shape of a full sized crucifix? Even if everyone had somehow forgotten that the Romans used to use it to make crosses to execute people on.

The answer is obvious: Every single one of those trees would be an object of veneration, and everyone in the Christian world would know about them. They would be planted in front of every church in the world.

Be sure to let us know when you find one.

I believe the author of that book simply made a mistake. Typo more than likely. There is a species of Quercus called coccifera that is common to the Mediterranian, but....
This will explain,

The Kermes Oak, Quercus coccifera, is closely related to the Palestine Oak (Quercus calliprinos) of the eastern Mediterranean, with some botanists including the latter in Kermes Oak as a subspecies or variety. The Palestine Oak is distinguished from it by its larger size (more often a tree, up to 18 m) and larger acorns over 2 cm diameter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus_coccifera


Palestine Oak. The tree of Abraham, reportedly 850 y.o.

http://www.wildflowers.co.il/english/plant.asp?ID=659

Not remotely crucifix shaped, but they do provide good cross buildin' timber.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/363-abraham-s-oak

 

[Meadmaker]

@abaddon, #298

Why do I say that “The Holy Bible is not only the ‘granddaddy of all divine revelations’ but it is the only one that came from the only true God”? Because John 14:6 states: “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” So if one wants to go to Heaven where the Father is, he/she has to go through Jesus. He/she has to believe in Jesus and follow His commandments.

And yet, you would have us believe that Jesus was breaking his own commandments.

Book of Leviticus. Chapter 23. Passover in the first month. Yom Kippur et. al. in the seventh month.

You would have us believe that God, in the person of the Son, celebrated Passover and then, only a few weeks later, following his resurrection, celebrated the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkoth).


I keep mentioning Leviticus 23, but the rest of the Bible says the same thing. It's just that Leviticus 23 is the place where the commandments regarding holidays are the most explicit.


You would have us believe that God commanded the Israelites to celebrate holidays at specific times of the year. Then, after being conquered by the Babylonians, they changed their calendar. That's plausible. However, you would have us believe that they shifted some, but not all, of their holidays that God had commanded, into the new calendar. That's a real stretch.

Then you would have us believe that God himself went along with this scheme. Huh?

And all of this while leaving no documentary evidence. You learned of all this via latter day divine revelation.


And then, just for the cherry on top, you've got Hanukkah and Purim thrown into the "purely lunar" calendar, once again with no evidence other than divine revelation. When it comes to Hanukkah, maybe that could fly. We don't have any evidence for what they did before the time of the Maccabees, but there are hints they did something. Maybe that lingered somehow. However, when it comes to Purim, there's a real problem.

Do you know what Jews do on Purim? They read the book of Esther. Yeah. Aloud. In the synagogue. These days, it's all sorts of fun because we carry noisemakers so that whenever the name Haman comes up everyone gets to shake their groggers so that no one can hear the name. During one sermon earlier this year, someone was encouraging us to do the same thing as he said the name of another Persian, "Achmedinajad". I don't know if they were doing the noismaker thing back in Jesus' day, but I'm pretty sure they were already reading that scroll of the book of Esther.

So here's the thing about that scroll. In the text, it says to celebrate during the month of Adar. It doesn't just say "the twelfth month". It says Adar.

You would have us to believe that on a sacred day, which occurred some time in Nisan, that a bunch of Jews got together and read a scroll, but the scroll itself commanded them to perform the celebration during the month of Adar.

That's daft.

 

[Akhenaten]

And yet, you would have us believe that Jesus was breaking his own commandments.

<respectful snip>

Against all expectations I'm quite enjoying learning about this stuff.

Thank you, Meadmaker.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Against all expectations I'm quite enjoying learning about this stuff.

Thank you, Meadmaker.

Likewise. It's great when that happens, isn't it?

PS While I searched Google images for the mythical cruciform oak tree, at one point (and I wish I'd noted the search terms) I hit on a Googlewhack - there was only 1 picture offered - and almost unbelievably it was Akhenaten's halloween avatar.

It's a sign.

Follow the gourd.

 

[Shiner]

Likewise. It's great when that happens, isn't it?

PS While I searched Google images for the mythical cruciform oak tree, at one point (and I wish I'd noted the search terms) I hit on a Googlewhack - there was only 1 picture offered - and almost unbelievably it was Akhenaten's halloween avatar.

It's a sign.

Follow the gourd.

I will bear witness to this. I had the same experience. Well, it was on the first page of images, so close enough.
Bloody mummies been tracking sand all through the interwebz.

 

[Akhenaten]

Mwahahahahaha!​

 

[Akuma Tennou]

@Akuma Tennou, #266

I thought you were just pulling my leg, Akuma Tennou. I checked the Internet and there is really a Quercus crucifera, a silky oak species. I do not know how it looked like, whether it has “only two branches that form a cross with the trunk” or not. I just share to you that as a punishment of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Gumamela Celis in Heaven), she was given three seeds which she planted many years before she was born to an infertile mother (Saint Anne). Her father was the impotent San Joaquin. She was to become the mother of the son who will save the world.

This is where Quercus crucifera is found:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...AEwAA#v=onepage&q="Quercus crucifera"&f=false

Quercus crucifera grows from altitude 800-1400 meters. Did you know that the approximate elevation of Jerusalem (Old City) where Jesus was crucified is 760 meters?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem)

cool indeed uh? go ask ama if she was crucified onto that very tree, we must be sure!

 

[pakeha]

Adding my thanks to Meadmaker for so much information about the Jewish calendar.
What a shame the Quercus lead petered out, PC.

 

[Wolrab]

@Astreja, #229

You are correct, Astreja. Cyrene was Libya. So Simon was from Cyrene who went to Jerusalem for a pilgrimage (Exodus 23:15; Deuteronomy 16:16). He was at Jerusalem from the fourteenth to the twenty-first. After the festival, he must have visited some relatives going to the country. On his way back to Jerusalem, he met the entourage of Jesus.

Jesus was crucified on the thirtieth of the first month, 16 days after Passover. Did you know that because He was scourged 5,455 times, the three kilometers from His imprisonment inside Jerusalem at a fort took them three days and three nights to travel. That is why when they met Simon of Cyrene on their way to the crucifixion site, they asked Simon to carry the cross. They hurried up because there were two consecutive days of Sabbath coming (high day Sabbath on Friday and the regular weekly Saturday Sabbath).

Mark 15:25 states: “And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.” What is the third hour? That is 9am. By noon, Longinus lanced the dying Jesus to a certain death. So Simon of Cyrene must have met the entourage of Jesus about 8am and was asked to carry the cross.

Jesus was not crucified on Passover when there were many people present in Jerusalem because “there [would] be an uproar among the people” (Matthew 26:3-5; Mark 14:1-2; Luke 22:1-2). So they imprisoned Jesus during the festival and after the pilgrims had left the city.

Jesus was whipped over 75 times an hour for three straight days and nights? Or was it just during daylight? Then he would have been scourged at a rate of 150 times an hour, or over twice a minute. Did the Romans have teams so one wouldn't get too tired? What was left of Jesus to nail up after he was ripped to tiny fragments? Did they use a couple of hundred nails for all the small pieces of flesh? If you ate one of those pieces of flesh, would it taste like a wafer?

 

[PeaceCrusader]

And yet, you would have us believe that Jesus was breaking his own commandments.

Book of Leviticus. Chapter 23. Passover in the first month. Yom Kippur et. al. in the seventh month.

You would have us believe that God, in the person of the Son, celebrated Passover and then, only a few weeks later, following his resurrection, celebrated the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkoth).


I keep mentioning Leviticus 23, but the rest of the Bible says the same thing. It's just that Leviticus 23 is the place where the commandments regarding holidays are the most explicit.


You would have us believe that God commanded the Israelites to celebrate holidays at specific times of the year. Then, after being conquered by the Babylonians, they changed their calendar. That's plausible. However, you would have us believe that they shifted some, but not all, of their holidays that God had commanded, into the new calendar. That's a real stretch.

Then you would have us believe that God himself went along with this scheme. Huh?

And all of this while leaving no documentary evidence. You learned of all this via latter day divine revelation.


And then, just for the cherry on top, you've got Hanukkah and Purim thrown into the "purely lunar" calendar, once again with no evidence other than divine revelation. When it comes to Hanukkah, maybe that could fly. We don't have any evidence for what they did before the time of the Maccabees, but there are hints they did something. Maybe that lingered somehow. However, when it comes to Purim, there's a real problem.

Do you know what Jews do on Purim? They read the book of Esther. Yeah. Aloud. In the synagogue. These days, it's all sorts of fun because we carry noisemakers so that whenever the name Haman comes up everyone gets to shake their groggers so that no one can hear the name. During one sermon earlier this year, someone was encouraging us to do the same thing as he said the name of another Persian, "Achmedinajad". I don't know if they were doing the noismaker thing back in Jesus' day, but I'm pretty sure they were already reading that scroll of the book of Esther.

So here's the thing about that scroll. In the text, it says to celebrate during the month of Adar. It doesn't just say "the twelfth month". It says Adar.

You would have us to believe that on a sacred day, which occurred some time in Nisan, that a bunch of Jews got together and read a scroll, but the scroll itself commanded them to perform the celebration during the month of Adar.

That's daft.

@Meadmaker, #325

I think what I mentioned is the evolution of the Jewish calendar. It did not start out immediately like what we have today. First, when the Israelites departed from Egypt in the 16th century BC, they used a purely lunar calendar. Then they were exiled to Babylon with the fall of Jerusalem in the seventh century BC where they learned about the Babylonian lunisolar calendar. So they were using two kinds of calendars during the time when Jesus was crucified. Then in 358/359 AD, they reformed their calendar to what it is today. Now, do you think Leviticus 23 is fulfilled with the new arrangement of the Jewish calendar?

You are correct, Meadmaker, that after forty days when Jesus came back to life or resurrection, He ascended to Heaven. The next day was the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkoth) and not Pentecost (Shavuoth). So the Holy Bible is wrong on this (Acts 2:1). Why?

Ama actually gave only the month and the day of Jesus’ crucifixion – August 17. I just worked out the rest using mainly the Holy Bible. That is why I developed the Aristean cycle where the first month of the religious purely lunar calendar falls in the civil lunisolar calendar.

We will talk about Hanukkah when we discuss the nativity of Jesus. Meantime, I suggest you read the book of Esther especially Esther 3 and 4.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

That old book is the only reference to q. crucifera I can find. It doesn't appear in Wikipedia's exhaustive-looking list of quercus species. The only vaguely relevant references to criciferae I can find are plants with cross-shaped flowers.


Putting that to one side, please consider PC: what would be the result of their being a tree native to that part of the world which happened to grow into the shape of a full sized crucifix? Even if everyone had somehow forgotten that the Romans used to use it to make crosses to execute people on.

The answer is obvious: Every single one of those trees would be an object of veneration, and everyone in the Christian world would know about them. They would be planted in front of every church in the world.

Be sure to let us know when you find one.

@Jack by the hedge, #323

Thank you, Jack by the hedge, for the reference you cited. I searched the Internet for more info about the species Quercus crucifera but failed. It is not even listed in the list of Quercus species. Maybe, we have to ask Akuma Tennou how come he mentioned that species.

People during the time of Jesus did not even know that the standard of Christianity or the followers of Jesus would be a cross, did they? There were three seeds that the Blessed Virgin Mary (BVM) (Gumamela Celis in Heaven) planted many years before she was even born. So the only true God must have planned it that Jesus with two malefactors would be executed by crucifixion and that the trees to be used were those planted by the BVM.

I do not know if there are surviving trees from the original three. You are right that they would be objects of veneration in the Christian world and even though the species may be endemic to Palestine, it could be introduced to other countries.

In the 1980s, I remember that the cross that we make should be in one piece only. From my notebook, it mentions how a one-inch cross (used as a necklace) should be made. A solid cross should be cut. One piece of wood and not two pieces. Now I realize why it is so.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

@Jack by the hedge, #323

Thank you, Jack by the hedge, for the reference you cited. I searched the Internet for more info about the species Quercus crucifera but failed. It is not even listed in the list of Quercus species. Maybe, we have to ask Akuma Tennou how come he mentioned that species.

People during the time of Jesus did not even know that the standard of Christianity or the followers of Jesus would be a cross, did they? There were three seeds that the Blessed Virgin Mary (BVM) (Gumamela Celis in Heaven) planted many years before she was even born. So the only true God must have planned it that Jesus with two malefactors would be executed by crucifixion and that the trees to be used were those planted by the BVM.

I do not know if there are surviving trees from the original three. You are right that they would be objects of veneration in the Christian world and even though the species may be endemic to Palestine, it could be introduced to other countries.

In the 1980s, I remember that the cross that we make should be in one piece only. From my notebook, it mentions how a one-inch cross (used as a necklace) should be made. A solid cross should be cut. One piece of wood and not two pieces. Now I realize why it is so.

Ama has spoken to me, She revealed that she is in reality, full of it.

 

[Meadmaker]

Then they were exiled to Babylon with the fall of Jerusalem in the seventh century BC where they learned about the Babylonian lunisolar calendar. So they were using two kinds of calendars during the time when Jesus was crucified.

Just to be clear on this, there's no evidence of this at all beyond the revelations of Ama, and there is very good reason to doubt it. The fact that some sort of calendar shift as a result of Babylonian contact does not in any way imply that they were using two kinds of calendars during the time of Jesus. It's much more sensible, in the absence of any other evidence, to assume that they shifted to a single lunisolar calendar, leaving whatever calendar they used before that behind.

(Note: The Essenes did use a different calendar, but it had nothing to do with a purely lunar calendar.)

Indeed, there is very good evidence from the Bible that a "purely lunar" calendar was never in use at all. The Bible links the start of the first month with the ripening of the barley. If the calendar were purely lunar, the barley would ripen at different times.

Then in 358/359 AD, they reformed their calendar to what it is today. Now, do you think Leviticus 23 is fulfilled with the new arrangement of the Jewish calendar?

The only thing the reform of 358 did was to eliminate the reliance on barey ripening as a means of determining when to hold Nisan. As the Jews were now scattered and so many had no connection with Jerusalem, and there were no priests left at any rate to give an "official" determination, they calculated a schedule of which years to insert the intercalary month, known as second Adar.

I am assuming that, barley or no barley, in reality the priests used astronomy to set the date of Nisan based on the new moon afterthe vernal equinox. That would explain the date of Easter quite nicely. However, I have no proof that was what would be used.

And yes, the current Jewish calendar does things as required in the Torah.

You are correct, Meadmaker, that after forty days when Jesus came back to life or resurrection, He ascended to Heaven. The next day was the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkoth) and not Pentecost (Shavuoth). So the Holy Bible is wrong on this (Acts 2:1). Why?

Wrong? A direct revelation from the one true God, but this Filipino woman can do better?

Ama actually gave only the month and the day of Jesus’ crucifixion – August 17. I just worked out the rest using mainly the Holy Bible.

Apparently excluding the Book of Acts?

We will talk about Hanukkah when we discuss the nativity of Jesus. Meantime, I suggest you read the book of Esther especially Esther 3 and 4.

Good plan, but I'm not reading anything else in the Book of Esther. I will, on the other hand, listen to it when the 14th of Adar rolls around, because that's the day when we celebrate, just like it says to do in Chapter 9.

As for Chapters 3 and 4, it's all about Nisan and Adar. Lunisolar right from the start.

 

[Akhenaten]

@Jack by the hedge, #323

Thank you, Jack by the hedge, for the reference you cited. I searched the Internet for more info about the species Quercus crucifera but failed. It is not even listed in the list of Quercus species. Maybe, we have to ask Akuma Tennou how come he mentioned that species.

Any response to my Harbour Bridge proposal?

People during the time of Jesus did not even know that the standard of Christianity or the followers of Jesus would be a cross, did they?

At the time of the alleged Jesus there was no such thing as Christianity, so it's little surprise that they hadn't organised a trade mark for themselves.

There were three seeds that the Blessed Virgin Mary (BVM) (Gumamela Celis in Heaven) planted many years before she was even born.

So the only true God must have planned it that Jesus with two malefactors would be executed by crucifixion and that the trees to be used were those planted by the BVM.

If that's the kind of plan that this god thing of yours comes up with then the nicest thing anyone could say about it is that it's not playing with a full deck.

I do not know if there are surviving trees from the original three. You are right that they would be objects of veneration in the Christian world and even though the species may be endemic to Palestine, it could be introduced to other countries.

You're already creating a new fairytale based on nonsense that people in this very thread are making up as they go to parody the ridiculous fairytales that you've already told.

In the 1980s, I remember that the cross that we make should be in one piece only. From my notebook, it mentions how a one-inch cross (used as a necklace) should be made. A solid cross should be cut. One piece of wood and not two pieces. Now I realize why it is so.

You don't realize any such thing. All you've done is create a new delusion for yourself.

This is exactly the sort of nonsense that you keep describing as previous discoveries, and there's no doubt at all that in 10 years time you'll be spouting nonsense about how you "discovered in 2012 the reason that crucifixes are made in one piece and that your studies have shown this to be logically correct."

 

[Akuma Tennou]

You are correct, Meadmaker, that after forty days when Jesus came back to life or resurrection, He ascended to Heaven. The next day was the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkoth) and not Pentecost (Shavuoth). So the Holy Bible is wrong on this (Acts 2:1). Why?

heresy :d

Maybe, we have to ask Akuma Tennou how come he mentioned that species.

you're not ready for The Truth. yet.

 

[Astreja]

The next day was the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkoth) and not Pentecost (Shavuoth). So the Holy Bible is wrong on this (Acts 2:1). Why?{emphasis Mine}

Because it's an anthology of idiotic religiously-themed fiction, that's why.

And now you've disproven your own assertion about the Bible being the work of "the one true god." Good work, Aristeo! A couple more pages of this thread, and we'll have you shaking your head and saying "I can't believe I wasted so many years of my life on this nonsense."

Meantime, I suggest you read the book of Esther especially Esther 3 and 4.

(Springy G fills Her recycling bin with empty aluminum tins, half a pound of drywall screws, and a handful of marbles) Ready! I'll shake the noisemaker thingamajig and boo and hiss when you say Ama.

 

[Shiner]

@Jack by the hedge, #323

Thank you, Jack by the hedge, for the reference you cited. I searched the Internet for more info about the species Quercus crucifera but failed. It is not even listed in the list of Quercus species. Maybe, we have to ask Akuma Tennou how come he mentioned that species.

I think you missed something important back there.

Each time I re-read this post I am more stupefied than the last.

People during the time of Jesus did not even know that the standard of Christianity or the followers of Jesus would be a cross, did they? There were three seeds that the Blessed Virgin Mary (BVM) (Gumamela Celis in Heaven) planted many years before she was even born. So the only true God must have planned it that Jesus with two malefactors would be executed by crucifixion and that the trees to be used were those planted by the BVM.

Is this more of that logic stuff at work ? Why can't you see the anomolies in this passage?

I do not know if there are surviving trees from the original three. You are right that they would be objects of veneration in the Christian world and even though the species may be endemic to Palestine, it could be introduced to other countries.

Original three what? I think you missed something important back there.

In the 1980s, I remember that the cross that we make should be in one piece only. From my notebook, it mentions how a one-inch cross (used as a necklace) should be made. A solid cross should be cut. One piece of wood and not two pieces. Now I realize why it is so.

And now I realise why it is so. I'm positive you missed something important back there.