How far will the excuses to shoot go?

[Kevin_Lowe]

You are using every possible word to minimise the situation. It sure seems like you have a strong bias, here.

If it makes you happy you can pretend I have any bias you like. Making up reasons to attribute bias to me isn't a very good argument.

 

[Nessie]

I would like to know exactly what was said in the 30 seconds of trying to talk Collar down, there is no audio on the CCTV. But from what I understand it was not much more than stop or I will shoot. I do not see that as trying to talk someone down.

The way you have said the student got 30 seconds makes it sound like you only get so much and then you should be shot. After 30 seconds you have not stopped your strange behavouir so it is time to die. But why not go on for minutes or even hours worth of stand off if thats what it takes to stop a death?

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Because the cop will tire of retreating long before a drugged man will tire of advancing.

 

[Belz...]

Cops should have every skill. Judge, jury, executioner, philosopher, psychologist, diplomat AND marathon runner.

 

[Nessie]

Because the cop will tire of retreating long before a drugged man will tire of advancing.

Thirty seconds? I can walk for hours at a time. All Austin needed to do was keep going for a few minutes. If he cannot then that is yet another reason why he should not be a police officer.

 

[Dan O.]

Because the cop will tire of retreating long before a drugged man will tire of advancing.

The latest reports from those that viewed the video say that the second officer arrived as the shot was being fired. Since this was around 1:30 AM and the officer arrived via patrol car, the lights would have been visible for several seconds before the officer arrived even for someone looking the other way.

It seems strange that officer Trevis tired of retreating just when he should have known that backup had arrived.

 

[Nessie]

Cops should have every skill. Judge, jury, executioner, philosopher, psychologist, diplomat AND marathon runner.

Cops should definitely not be judge, jury and executioner as that is the courts job.

Philosophy, no best spend time learning the law and procedures.

Psychologist and diplomat. Yes, those qualities are needed as you want police who are able to judge situations with a high degree of accuracy and be able to use verbal skills rather than force as much as possible. Good cops should develop such skills and be able to get a feeling for how someone is going to behave or react. That is not superhuman.

Marathon runner, no just a good level of fitness and that should be certainly more than 30 seconds worth of walking and holding a gun.

Belz, your posts suggest you have hardly any expectations of police officers being able to do their jobs at all and that those who can do are somehow superhuman. That is so wrong.

 

[Nessie]

Because the cop will tire of retreating long before a drugged man will tire of advancing.

I know there are drugs which enhance stamina, but is PCP one of them? I cannot find any reports of that being the case.

In any case your statement is too simplistic as it fails to take into account other factors such as fitness.

 

[Alt+F4]

Very, very small risks don't justify the use of lethal force. We pay police specifically to take small risks with their lives.

First of all, everyone takes a risk with their lives when going to work, being at work, doing their job.

You think a pay check stops a cop from being scared, burned out, or having seen too much? You expect a cop to be perfect just because he or she is getting paid? Mistakes happen and anyone, no matter what their job, can use lethal force. Yikes, you can kill your cube mate with a pencil.

 

[Nessie]

First of all, everyone takes a risk with their lives when going to work, being at work, doing their job.

You think a pay check stops a cop from being scared, burned out, or having seen too much? You expect a cop to be perfect just because he or she is getting paid? Mistakes happen and anyone, no matter what their job, can use lethal force. Yikes, you can kill your cube mate with a pencil.

True, but it does not make it acceptable or not punishable.

 

[Belz...]

Belz, your posts suggest you have hardly any expectations of police officers being able to do their jobs at all and that those who can do are somehow superhuman. That is so wrong.

My posts suggest nothing of the sort. But I'm not surprised that you think they do, seeing as you thought that saying one such shooting may have been justified to mean that shooting all drugged people was justified.

I'm simply expecting police officers to be well-trained humans who, in the absence of omniscience, have to make quick decisions, some of them unfortunate but understandable.

 

[Alt+F4]

True, but it does not make it acceptable or not punishable.

Absolutely, but Kevin makes it seem like just because they are paid they should be perfect.

Just because someone decides to risk their lives to assist others doesn't mean that they are not flawed, scared (who wouldn't be?) or possible (in this case) not well trained.

 

[Alt+F4]

I'm simply expecting police officers to be well-trained humans who, in the absence of omniscience, have to make quick decisions, some of them unfortunate but understandable.

Indeed, but some police forces are not well trained, for various reasons.

 

[fuelair]

Whilst being on PCP does appear to reduce pain, does it make you a better fighter? In my experience drunks and druggies are easier to restrain than sober people as alcohol and drugs may give some protection against pain, but it makes you a crap fighter. It does not matter to me if pain is felt or not if I want to cuff someone, I just want the cuffs on and that person restrained. What matters to me is their ability to fight.

So does PCP make you a better wrestler or not?

Fortunately, I do not know the answer to that from either side of the drug (taker or attacked by taker). My knowledge is from police reports and news articles in reasonably trustworthy news sources. As to the no pain felt thing, it seemed to work well for the berserkers and though not popular with regular fighters they seem to have been rather good at what they did - and they were on a natural high!!

 

[Nessie]

My posts suggest nothing of the sort. But I'm not surprised that you think they do, seeing as you thought that saying one such shooting may have been justified to mean that shooting all drugged people was justified.

I'm simply expecting police officers to be well-trained humans who, in the absence of omniscience, have to make quick decisions, some of them unfortunate but understandable.

You are the one who kept on going on about superhuman powers.

I asked some people to clarify what they meant by what they had said. I ignored others who chipped in and once clarification had come from the two I had asked I stopped.

I expect more from police officers than shooting nude students high on drugs. I also expect more from civilians who have armed themselves, than shooting people banging on their back door or turning to respond to a shout whilst dressed as John Travolta.

I also expect more from the police than to line up line like a firing squad and shooting a man 46 times

http://rt.com/usa/news/police-shoot-hall-saginaw-240/

I certainly expect way more than the lame excuses that have been given for such actions.

 

[Nessie]

Indeed, but some police forces are not well trained, for various reasons.

True, but surly not police forces in on of the worlds richest and best developed countries in the world?

Here we have inexperienced cops accompanied by more experienced ones until they are deemed suitable to go out on their own. In risk areas no one patrols alone.

 

[Nessie]

Fortunately, I do not know the answer to that from either side of the drug (taker or attacked by taker). My knowledge is from police reports and news articles in reasonably trustworthy news sources. As to the no pain felt thing, it seemed to work well for the berserkers and though not popular with regular fighters they seem to have been rather good at what they did - and they were on a natural high!!

The no pain thing does not provide a very good reason to use deadly force IMO. Having a gun pointed at you or being charged by someone with a knife who knows how to use it are reasons to use deadly force. Whether they feel pain or not is not relevant.

 

[Pup]

Absolutely, but Kevin makes it seem like just because they are paid they should be perfect.

Just because someone decides to risk their lives to assist others doesn't mean that they are not flawed, scared (who wouldn't be?) or possible (in this case) not well trained.

True, but when people act in less-than-perfect ways that result in the death of others, society generally expects them to suffer some consequences. One can't expect every driver to be alert constantly, but there's still a penalty for a momentary second of inattention that causes the death of someone else, even if the driver's excuse is that he's only a flawed human and can be expected to be inattentive occasionally.

 

[Segnosaur]

To see how risky wrestlers are I had a look to see how many instances there are of wrestlers killing using wrestling moves. There have been more than I was expecting.

Why should you be surprised at that?

Here's another statistic... in 2010 in the United States, there were 745 murders that occurred without weapons (i.e. from getting punched, kicked, pushed down, etc.) That works out to roughly 6% of all homicides. Furthermore, that number appears to be quite stable from year to year.\

So, to anyone who claims the officer shouldn't feel threatened by an "unarmed naked man", there are 745 deaths that say otherwise.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc.../crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl09.xls

I would still like to know how drugs affect ability to wrestle and I still think just because very occasionally some wrestlers have sometimes killed using wrestling moves that kill becomes the justified option for Austin against Collar.

Even if the student wasn't a wrestler, there are hundreds of deaths a year that occur during "fights", and I'm sure that not all of the people involved are professional wrestlers.

Marathon runner, no just a good level of fitness and that should be certainly more than 30 seconds worth of walking and holding a gun.

As was mentioned earlier, even if the officer was fit himself, continued pursuit might have required him to turn his back to flee.

Would you turn your back on a possible threat?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Why should you be surprised at that?

Here's another statistic... in 2010 in the United States, there were 745 murders that occurred without weapons (i.e. from getting punched, kicked, pushed down, etc.) That works out to roughly 6% of all homicides. Furthermore, that number appears to be quite stable from year to year.\

So, to anyone who claims the officer shouldn't feel threatened by an "unarmed naked man", there are 745 deaths that say otherwise.

Including that face eating zombie guy. Totally harmless even though he had just killed someone. Totally wrong to shoot.