How far will the excuses to shoot go?

[Nessie]

Liar. You're trying to create an equivalence between all similar incidents and this one, to create a false binary so you can get people to say all drug suspects should be shot or none, studiously ignoring the part where they keep saying some should be shot. If you were interested in the truth, you'd be asking about apparently high suspects who rushed cops with guns drawn after repeated attempts to stop.

Actually, thousands of cops do precisely that every day. You're not arguing that the cop should've just stood there while the suspect ignored his commands, are you?

I like how you say he shouldn't have shot the kid and tried other things, but say him trying to avoid shooting the kid and trying other things doesn't count.

Nope. Cops are in that exact same situation on a daily basis, and most don't shoot anyone. Most cops never shoot anyone. You are wrong.

Show how I am supposedly lying by going back over my comments in this thread and make links to evidence your claim I am a liar.

You will find that the reason why I have asked if all drugged up people should be shot is because I think that claim is utter nonsense. You will find I have pointed out that people can be supposedly drugged up for all sorts of reasons.

I'll start you off

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8683291#post8683291

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8685016#post8685016

No I am not arguing the cop should have just stood there. I am arguing he should have dealt with this incident completely differently and shooting was excessive and the cop got it horribly wrong.

I do not agree going out with your gun drawn and the tactics that go with that by shouting stop and maintaining distance is an attempt not to shoot the kid. Going out with full kit, gun holstered and trying other methods first is trying not to shoot the student.

That most cops do not shoot proves my point that on this case, the cop got it wrong.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the eye of the beholder

Report on the local news from the scene by a reporter who saw the video:
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/oct/11/surveillance-video-released-of-gil-colla-63591-vi-147259/

She walks through the confrontation from the video.

Her version of events has a different feel than I get from the other two links. I think she editorializes a bit (twice she uses the word "subdue" but there is no audio, IIUC). She also does not mention what the other descriptions did, that the student, Gil Collar, had his hands raised. The Miami Herald said, "Collar approaches Austin with his arms outstretched and palms open toward Austin. They move around the porch, with Collar kneeling at one point, then getting to his feet and again walking toward Austin."

 

[Dan O.]

And if he went outside to discover the person pounding on the window was being assaulted by a group of armed men?

If the cop had his weapon drawn in that situation he would now be dead and the discussion would still be about the stupid cop.

 

[Nessie]

False binary. You are trying to say everything he did with his gun drawn counts as one option, and everything without a gun counts as another. You have said things that are objectively wrong, then tried to rewrite the dictionary.

Please go and ask someone about use of firearms. You cannot, not shout commands and keep a reasonable distance when you are pointing a gun at someone. You do want to be too close or you risk losing the gun, you do not want to be too far away, especially with a hand gun as they are not that accurate. You have to give clear instructions as to what you want the other person to do. They are intrinsically linked.

It is hard to establish a calming verbal rapport with someone who you are pointing a gun at. You have to put the gun away to use baton, CS or cuffs.

That is why I say the various means of dealing with this situation are separate.

 

[Nessie]

You asssume his baton was readily available to him, another one of the assumptions you keep making without any evidence to support it.

You assume it wasn't. I also say on duty you must have all your kit ready and at hand. Or is your lame excuse going to be I shot the student because my baton was in my locker and that makes it OK?

 

[Nessie]

The reporter describes an aggressive person in a fighting stance.

Yeah, just a phrasing difference.

Quote what she did say please. And what the lawyer said.

 

[000063]

I find interesting that Nessie will try and get people to commit to his strawmen about police shooting all drug users, but ignores the fact that most cops who draw guns on a suspect never use them.

The strangest thing is, I know he's not dumb, yet he's stuffing his fingers in his ears and going la-la.

Just for the sake of argument, here are some of the options for a cop who approaches a suspect with their gun out.

• 
  * Put the gun away.
  * Talk to the suspect (tried repeatedly, failed)
  * Keep away from suspect (tried repeatedly, failed)
  * Arrest suspect. (N/A)
  * Try to physically subdue suspect (contraindicated by just about every single police instructor or self-defense instructor)
  * Kick suspect in nuts. (requires melee range)
  * Put gun away and use taser. (no time to draw)
  * Put gun away and use pepper spray. (no time to draw)
  * Shoot them.

The problem with Nessie's vague "other things" is that they usually require a suspect who is reasonable. Nessie dodged my question about whether the suspect was, saying that the suspect was "acting unreasonably". The other prospects, tasers and pepper spray, could not be done in time. Physical assault puts the officer at an undue risk with a high chance of failure.

What Nessie forgets, like so many people who condemn the cops, is that cops are essentially defensive. They're supposed to react, not agress. The cop's actions were in response to the actions of the suspect. Most of the time, when people condemn the cops for doing something, it's clear they place no responsibility on the suspect whatsoever.

 

[000063]

I'm giong to go out on a limb and assume the door to the campus police office is lockable.

And he certainly is obligated to defuse the situation in the least violent way possible. Which would mean going inside, locking the door, grabbing a taser, calling for back-up and keeping an eye on the guy through the window.

Assuming the door is lockable. Last time I was in a police station, the door required a key. If the cop doesn't have a key on him, he has to go look for it.

And the shooting occurred approx. 30 secs after the cop came out. It doesn't seem like he tried to talk him down for very long before resorting to deadly force.

He tried to talk him down, the student rushed him while making threats, then the cop tried to evade while continuing to tell him to stop, then he opened fire. You lot keep omitting certain details.

Are cops in the US really so terrified of physical conflict that they would rather shoot people than risk it?

Considering that physical conflict can easily result in injury to the officer, if not worse, especially if the suspect is on drugs, yes. Officers are told to avoid physical conflict, because it's dangerous to all parties involved. If he hadn't fired, we could've ended up with an injured cop and a drugged up kid with a gun.

 

[Dan O.]

Are you claiming the cop could have known why someone was pounding on the window prior to stepping outside?

I'm claiming that the stupid cop could have looked out the window prior to stepping out. He could have opened the door and looked out while holding the door open as a retreat if there were a situation that then required more force. He was not prepaired to handle every situation he could have encountered out there even with his little gun in front of him.


The description of Collar returning to the door of the police station twice before pounding on the window makes me think he could have been expecting to meet someone there.

 

[000063]

You made a false claim about shoplifters, revealing your ignorance, nice to see you acknowledge you were wrong.

Congratulations! A single brownie point!

I cannot remember TriForCharity's comments. But if firefighters can subdue people without shooting, so should cops be able to do the same thing, unless they have run out of all options.[/quote]And guess what, he was!

I have been saying getting your gun out and having no other equipment means you only option is to shoot, referring to the instance with the student.

Still wrong. If cops generally don't shoot suspects in similar situations, you need to ask yourself what was so different about this situation.

Hey how about getting some random guys big and small to hit you and then start to record who has the hardest punch and then back up your claim big guys hit harder than smaller ones. Physics teacher? How about boxing coach?

Sure, why not? I've noticed that you've made no effort to actually find out for yourself, and are aggressively pursuing an irrelevant sidetrack to try and make yourself look better.

Shouting stop when you have a gun in your hand is barely verbal skills. It is the bare minimum. Verbal skills means much, much more, but that is where your ignorance shows through.

Ah, so you admit it's verbal skills, despite clearly saying earlier it wasn't. Stop moving goalposts. My mother was an English teacher for most of my life. I know what "verbal skills" are.

You keep saying the cop should've tried measures which require the suspect being reasonable, while refusing to admit whether the suspect was or wasn't reasonable. Just say yes, no, or I don't know. It's not difficult. No "acting unreasonably" dodge.

Mockery, I may just show that of you

Good luck!

 

[000063]

With the way cops are expected to behave, it's not safe to go to them in an emergency.

Was the guy outside being assaulted? No. That's just your imagination dreaming up excuses for the shooting. Was backup on the way? Yes. Was there a way to determine when the backup would arrive? Yes, the same way they were summoned.

There was also another person inside the police station that came outside immediately after the shooting. We're they notified earlier of the situation? We're they able to witness what happened?

In the news and in the movies, cops always seem to be able to pull a blanket out of their patrol cars whenever someone is underdressed or exposed to the weather. Blankets seem to be part of the standard equipment they have on hand. I would think that a naked person coming to the door of the police station is more in need of being handed a blanket instead of having a gun pointed at them.

Unless, of course, they are aggressively threatening and moving toward the officer despite repeated commands to stop, which the suspect was.

 

[Bikewer]

It's very typical for folks to view an incident like this and then sit back and "armchair quarterback" the whole thing in exhaustive detail.
"Well, if it had been me....
"The cop should have..."
"Why didn't....."

That's why we have courts and grand juries and review boards. You can be assured that an incident like this, the shooting of a student, will be examined in excruciating detail, and it will no doubt have impact on that agency for years to come.

Ever is it thus.

It's very difficult to put oneself objectively into the mind of the police officer actually handling the incident. Some officers remain cool and calm, and are also competent in the various techniques we are all supposed to know... And as a result can handle a situation like this with some aplomb.
Others are not...
Mind, I'm not trying to justify this shooting. I would think that in my own case I would have simply grabbed junior and relied on my own skills to at least control him till the rest of the guys could pile on. Or I would have just pepper-sprayed him.
As I said early on, the risk-management folks who help police departments formulate policy think that everyone on the street should have the full range of tools needed to implement the "continuum of force".
For some reason, this particular officer did not appear to. Can't say why. Can't say why he felt deadly force was justified.
Perhaps he was in poor physical shape and felt he would be overpowered and his gun taken.
Maybe he had an ongoing medical condition and this is why he was working "the desk"...
Don't know. Useless to speculate.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

Assuming the door is lockable. Last time I was in a police station, the door required a key. If the cop doesn't have a key on him, he has to go look for it.

He tried to talk him down, the student rushed him while making threats, then the cop tried to evade while continuing to tell him to stop, then he opened fire. You lot keep omitting certain details.

Considering that physical conflict can easily result in injury to the officer, if not worse, especially if the suspect is on drugs, yes. Officers are told to avoid physical conflict, because it's dangerous to all parties involved. If he hadn't fired, we could've ended up with an injured cop and a drugged up kid with a gun.

And if he had gone back inside and waited for back-up? (While keeping an eye on him through the window. Which you lot seem to think is a ludicrous idea for some reason.)

When was he making threats? I haven't read that anywhere.

 

[000063]

No not every cop, but it does limit their options.

Artilces so far in this thread

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...of-naked-college-student-mother-asks-why?lite

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/10/11/3045664/video-shows-naked-student-calm.html

http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/oct/11/surveillance-video-released-of-gil-colla-63591-vi-147259/

You asserted that drawing a gun makes shooting someone "the most likely option". When that was shown to be false, you backpedaled to try and claim that you were only referring to this case. Of course, you can't determine how likely a shooting is without looking at other cases. What made it most likely to be a shooting was the suspect's aggressive actions.

 

[TragicMonkey]

It is a question that you should be able to answer as it is not just the police who deal with out of their face drug addicts. So how do others do it and why are you saying the police should just shoot them?

I never said the police "should just shoot them". I said it would be an expected result. If they manage to subdue the threat nonfatally, great. If not, oh well, very sad but these things happen.

If a case of diabetes can be treated without amputation of a foot, that's great. But sometimes you have to amputate. Acknowledging that doesn't mean "OMG you want doctors to chop off everybody's feet!!!"

 

[000063]

I'm not saying he should have hidden under a desk. I have seen the building and it has a lot of huge windows. He could have kept an eye on him until back-up arrived.

And what if the suspect had wandered off? Then he has to leave to continue to keep an eye on him.

Then it would have been 2 against 1 and the likelihood of death would have decreased dramatically.

I'm not sure if police dispatchers are trained in any way in physical conflict (as it appears even cops aren't) but there was one in the building. And back-up arrived seconds after the shooting.

No one is saying that deadly force should never be used, only that in this case it wasn't the only option. And that the non-death option should always be attempted.

He did. You're saying he should've ran back inside and locked the door at the first sign of trouble. He tried to repeatedly evade the suspect and get him to stop. It didn't work.

 

[WildCat]

Show how I am supposedly lying by going back over my comments in this thread and make links to evidence your claim I am a liar.

You will find that the reason why I have asked if all drugged up people should be shot is because I think that claim is utter nonsense.

The only person making that claim was the strawman you constructed.

 

[Dan O.]

Just for the sake of argument, here are some of the options for a cop who approaches a suspect with their gun out.

The stupid cop has already failed.

Have you evvr had one of those dreams where you are falling and nothing you do can save you? Yet you keep repeating that dream sequence over and over, trying all the options, failing again and again. It's no use trying to justify the situation with improbable solutions. You have to learn not to fall in the first place.

 

[WildCat]

If the cop had his weapon drawn in that situation he would now be dead and the discussion would still be about the stupid cop.

Why would he be dead?

 

[WildCat]

Please go and ask someone about use of firearms. You cannot, not shout commands and keep a reasonable distance when you are pointing a gun at someone.

You can't?