How far will the excuses to shoot go?

[Nessie]

Not only is it needless, but people on drugs have shrugged off gunfire, much less crushed nuts. And, as I said, needless risk to the officer.

He tried retreating, and the suspect aggressively and repeatedly pursued. And despite Nessie's tears, the cop did ask the suspect to stop, repeatedly. The police are under no obligation to retreat indoors, even assuming there was a lockable door nearby, and if the person proceeded to hurt others, the cop is up for negligence.

You need to read the article about the actual video of the incident. The student did not behave aggressively and the pursuit was walk towards the officer who wanted to maintain his distance as he had drawn his gun.

So what if the cops are under no obligation to retreat inside. If staying inside till help arrives is a non deadly option, why not use it?

 

[SumDood]

Report on the local news from the scene by a reporter who saw the video:
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/oct/11/surveillance-video-released-of-gil-colla-63591-vi-147259/

She walks through the confrontation from the video.

 

[WildCat]

It's not looking good for the cop. miamiherald, CBS42

I'm shocked that the attorney hired to sue the department by the family of the kid declared it was unjustified!

 

[Dan O.]

And then just watch when he attacks someone else?

More ********.

 

[Nessie]

No, you said that even having a gun present makes it a deadly force situation, which is completely incorrect.

​

Most cops draw their weapons and still don't use them, ever.

A larger man can, in a fight, generally bring more weight and force to bear than a smaller one. This is physics. Even a Kubotan can markedly increase effectiveness in combat simply by adding a few ounces to a fist.

My name is little Jock Elliot/and who daur meddle with me....

Which doesn't actually rebut me.

I literally never said that. I said being big was an advantage.

Because he was presenting what could be reasonably interpreted as a deadly force threat to the officer. The cop asked him to stop several times, says the article you linked in the first post, so your complaints about "verbal skills" are objectively false.

Keep demonstrating your ignorance.

I said having your gun drawn, pointing at the person and using the tactic of maintaining space makes it a deadly force situation.

Please prove your claim about a larger man. In any case here the student does not appear to be the larger man.

Pointing a gun and shouting stop hardly counts as verbal skills. Verbal skills mean establishing communication, asking whats wrong, what can be done to help, talking the person down.

What is your experience of making arrests? Your ignorance about levels of threat and verbal skills suggests it is none.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

two questions

Why did the deceased go to the police station? Did the station have an intercom that would allow a person inside to talk to a person outside? IIRC a station at a nearby campus is so equipped.

 

[Dan O.]

I'm shocked that the attorney hired to sue the department by the family of the kid declared it was unjustified!

Read the news.

 

[Dcdrac]

If the Scottish way is unrealistic and impractical, how do we manage to deal with people out of their faces, as we would put it, without killing them?

Also how do the US police manage to arrest people out of their faces without killing them?

How do paramedics and hospital staff deal with such people without killing them?

managed it all the time, the first thing to do was talk them down,calm them down and if that failed, then if you had your colleagues in posiotn orrectly then and only then did you use force and isarm them.

It was very very rare to involve an armed respnse uint when it was clear the perp had a gun.

 

[WildCat]

If the fear is the cop will lose his gun, why go out with it in the first place?

Odd, earlier you were upset that the cop didn't go out with his full kit.

 

[000063]

The cop left the office with his gun drawn pointing at the student who was walking about with his arms out and hands open. That is the key point.

A key point. He also chased the cop and ignored commands to stop.

He went to a potential scuffle with someone exhibiting all the signs of a mental breakdown where drug induced or not with his gun drawn.

Why, yes, in order to protect himself and the public, as per protocol. What he also went into was a situation which was also a "potential" peaceful arrest.

"The video shows the 5-foot-7, 140-pound student never got closer to the officer than 4 feet and didn't try to grab his weapon, Beasley contended"

People have been shot and successfully assaulted their attacker from further ranges.

The distance part and having to back off as some sort of attempt to avoid force is lame as there we plenty of other ways of dealing with this situation without going to a drawn gun first.

In fact, officer presence should've been enough, if the suspect was logical and compliant. We both know he wasn't. The officer also tried verbal commands, which also didn't work. He tried running away, and that didn't work. The claim that he was expecting to shoot the guy is false. Almost every single claim you've made in this debate has been wrong.

I find it amazing you speak out against kicking in the balls but support shooting.

Actually, I support both, as the situation warrants. There are situations where it's a good idea for a cop to kick someone in the nuts, such as being in a physical cinch, but this wasn't one of them.

One of your fears about a kick in the balls is a law suit,

And injury to the suspect, and risk to the officer, and that it's not effective stopping people who are high.

yet here we have a shooting and a law suit. Kicking in the balls causes less or more sever injury than shooting? Kicking in the balls as opposed to shooting, what is the accuracy rate? Kicking in the balls and shooting, what is more effective to people who feel no pain?

Shooting, actually. You don't actually need your beans and franks to run forward and beat up someone. You do, however, need a working heart. And you're ignoring the fact that you need to be in melee range of a suspect to nutshot, which is objectively a bad idea when the suspect is a non-responsive drug-crazed belligerent who seems to be trying to attack you even though you have a gun out.

What is your experience of making arrests?

I'm friends with a police officer, my sister has two black belts, and I am personally quite well read on self-defense techniques, weapons, and warfare. I'd ask you yours, but it's irrelevant, since you clearly have much much less. Why do you keep ignoring things I prove you objectively wrong on?

 

[Nessie]

Both, perhaps. If you'd like to make a point, make it, don't ask false rhetorical questions you don't actually know the answers to.

That and asking him to stop several times, which you claimed he didn't.

Only if you are trying to discuss drug use situations in general, instead of trying to create a straw man where they say "no" and you say "so why shoot this one guy?", like people haven't explained it for ten+ pages. It really is tiresome.

Let's say the cops pull over two people for busted tailights. One is given a warning and sent on their way. The other is hauled out of the car at gunpoint because a plate check reveals he's a wanted serial killer. There is a difference in the way cops handle various situations, and trying to lump all drug-related suspects into one category while ignoring the threat this one posed is not logical.

See, you're still doing it.

Nope. False equivalence. Other methods were, in fact, tried, despite your false binary. They didn't work. The suspect was simply not responsive to logic.

You have failed to follow this discussion, I have repeatedly asked TragicMonkey and others, is shooting really the only option? I am not making the claim shooting is the only option, the complete opposite is what I have been arguing for.

I see shouting stop and maintaining a distance as part of and not separate to pointing a gun at someone. You cannot point a gun at someone, say nothing and then walk right up to them or walk miles away from them.

Now if the cop had opened a window and tried to speak to the student, or had come out with baton or cuffs whilst his armed partner headed back to the police station, I would have seen that as trying something else.

But walking out with a gun pointing at the student, shouting stop and maintaining a distance needed to get off an accurate shot, that is only one option.

 

[Dan O.]

Why did the deceased go to the police station? Did the station have an intercom that would allow a person inside to talk to a person outside? IIRC a station at a nearby campus is so equipped.

That's a good point. I'll look again. But most of the view is obscured by the banner, maybe there are other views.

 

[WildCat]

I only looked at the opening frame of that video and it looks like there are more than one officer on the scene. Austin however exited the police station alone with only his gun between him and the unknown. He should have stayed inside where he was safe until backup arrived.

And if the naked guy was ponding on the cop shop door because he had just been assaulted and was desperately trying to escape his attackers?

The cop didnt know why the naked guy was pounding on the window, whether he was a perp or a victim or what else was waiting outside.

I can imagine Dan O. escaping from people assaulting him, and luckily finding a cop nearby who... stands by while you continue to get assaulted while he waits for backup to arrive, maybe in 10 seconds or maybe in an hour.

 

[WildCat]

The student did not behave aggressively

So says the attorney hired by the family...

 

[WildCat]

More ********.

You apparently just read the end of this thread. The kid had already attacked several other people prior to this.

 

[Nessie]

Odd, earlier you were upset that the cop didn't go out with his full kit.

Yes, the cop should not have gone out with his gun, he should have used another option. That is what I have been arguing from the start. Not that you have followed this from the start.

 

[Nessie]

So says the attorney hired by the family...

And now he is backed up by one of the reporters who went to a viewing of the CCTV recording.

 

[000063]

We do not know enough to say whether or not the cop could have just gone back inside after he started to maintain a distance between him and the student.

Which would be negligent of him. And he tried to maintain distance. The suspect wasn't having it.

If kicking someone in the balls is needless cruelty, what descriptive would you use for shooting someone in the chest?

Sorry, I misspoke. There are very few situations where nut-kicking is the appropriate response, and it is not used as a go-to technique for good reasons.

Shoplifters avoid conflict? What all of them, in all situations, are you sure?

Speaking generally, not absolutely. Nice nitpicking. What may be appropriate for shoplifters might not be appropriate for people on drugs. Incidentally, mall security officers have been shot by shoplifters, so it's clearly not as safe as one might think.

What experience do you have of making arrests?

Irrelevant. You ignored TriForCharity, who is, IIRC, a firefighter with experience subduing violent people.

I said having your gun drawn, pointing at the person and using the tactic of maintaining space makes it a deadly force situation.

No, you specifically said that it means someone gets shot. You even said that

...
"The officer with weapon drawn ordered the individual to halt. The officer retreated numerous times in an attempt to calm the situation."

So the first thing he did was escalate the situation to one where deadly force was the most likely option. ...

Which is flatly contradicted by the vast majority of situations where this exact procedure is followed, and deadly force is not used. It can't be the most likely option if it is an exception.

Please prove your claim about a larger man. In any case here the student does not appear to be the larger man.

Here's an idea; find a small guy and have him punch you in the shoulder stongly. Then have a large man punch you in the other shoulder. Do this several times, with several different men. No cheating and using little guys who happen to be weightlifters. Which generally hit harder? Or just ask a physics teacher if big dudes generally hit harder than little dudes.

Pointing a gun and shouting stop hardly counts as verbal skills. Verbal skills mean establishing communication, asking whats wrong, what can be done to help, talking the person down.

So speaking doesn't count as verbal skills now.

All right. That's it. You are now worthy of only my mockery.

What is your experience of making arrests? Your ignorance about levels of threat and verbal skills suggests it is none.

Yes, because clearly you've demonstrated so much knowledge of how weapons and cops work.

 

[WildCat]

Report on the local news from the scene by a reporter who saw the video:
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/oct/11/surveillance-video-released-of-gil-colla-63591-vi-147259/

She walks through the confrontation from the video.

The reporter has quite a different take than the family's lawyer does. Shocking, I know...

 

[000063]

Yes, that is standard procedure for cops in the US when encountering someone on drugs. They just shoot them on sight. That's why there's millions of police shootings in the US every year.

You do love your straw men, don't you?

And every cop who draws their gun and asks a subject to stop is probably going to shoot them.

You need to read the article about the actual video of the incident. The student did not behave aggressively and the pursuit was walk towards the officer who wanted to maintain his distance as he had drawn his gun.

I don't suppose your majesty would be willing to provide the article, would you?

So what if the cops are under no obligation to retreat inside. If staying inside till help arrives is a non deadly option, why not use it?

It's not like having someone high on drugs run around is a bad idea, and puts the people cops are sworn to protect at risk or anything.