How far will the excuses to shoot go?

[LTC8K6]

Run away, is that really what cops are taught to do when pointing a gun at someone? Or do your really mean keep your distance as part of the training when you are pointing a gun at someone? Bear in mind it was the only thing the cop tried.

A number of people here have been arguing go for a cop and you deserve to be shot. They have also been justifying using deadly force in this case of the student. So it is reasonable to ask them is that the case for all situations where someone is high on drugs? Is shooting the only way of dealing with such people? I have not had an answer as saying that there are other ways of dealing with aggressive/mad/erratic people on drugs means they weaken their case for the cop being justified in shooting the student dead.

Shooting may indeed be the only way of dealing with such a person when you are alone, being pursued/attacked, and you have no other weapon, or your LTL weapons have not been effective.

I certainly would not even want to attempt hand to hand combat with such a subject, and that is probably the policy of most police departments in the US.

I'm surprised people aren't asking why the officer couldn't have just stabbed the guy...after all, that is less likely to kill him immediately...

 

[Nessie]

He tried leaving. The suspect pursued.

Which is both needless cruelty, and requires him, by definition, to put his head in punching/grabbing range. Head includes eyes.

Quite difficult, if the suspect is moving. Despite the movies, a legshot can kill quite easily, especially if it hits the femoral artery.

Shoplifters avoid conflict. A guy rushing towards a cop who has a weapon drawn is inviting conflict. Cops are trained to avoid melee, especially with people who seem to be mentally disturbed or high.

Was the guy high?

You are incorrect. You are generalizing about all combat from your limited experience, and using examples only superficially similar to this situation.

Actually, similar incidents have ended with the cop in the hospital, or dead, even after the suspect was shot.

We do not know enough to say whether or not the cop could have just gone back inside after he started to maintain a distance between him and the student.

If kicking someone in the balls is needless cruelty, what descriptive would you use for shooting someone in the chest?

Shoplifters avoid conflict? What all of them, in all situations, are you sure?

What experience do you have of making arrests?

 

[TragicMonkey]

If the Scottish way is unrealistic and impractical, how do we manage to deal with people out of their faces, as we would put it, without killing them?

Also how do the US police manage to arrest people out of their faces without killing them?

Every situation is not the same. Expecting the same outcome from different situations is silly. My point is that in this situation, the outcome was not ideal, but it was acceptable, given the circumstances. You disagree, and that's fine.

How do paramedics and hospital staff deal with such people without killing them?

I can't imagine why all the population of Abyssinia keep bringing up doctors into this. Why not ask how botanists deal with this situation? When someone rushes into a hospital attacking people they call security and/or the cops.

 

[Nessie]

Shooting may indeed be the only way of dealing with such a person when you are alone, being pursued/attacked, and you have no other weapon, or your LTL weapons have not been effective.

I certainly would not even want to attempt hand to hand combat with such a subject, and that is probably the policy of most police departments in the US.

I'm surprised people aren't asking why the officer couldn't have just stabbed the guy...after all, that is less likely to kill him immediately...

Yes it may be the only way, but you only know that if you try other ways first. If your only means of affecting an arrest is with your gun, then it does become the only way. I say the cop was very, very wrong to have his gun as his only way.

Hand to hand combat is not the descriptive I would use. Arrests where there is a struggle involve pulling, pushing, kicking or lashing out and for the police officer involve getting the person cuffed, so they concentrate on getting at the wrists.

No one mentioned a knife as no police force that I am aware of issue knives. I think you only mentioned knives as you cannot deal with the question of how to justify only going to deal with a nude student on drugs with a gun.

 

[Dan O.]

It's not looking good for the cop. miamiherald, CBS42

 

[Nessie]

Every situation is not the same. Expecting the same outcome from different situations is silly. My point is that in this situation, the outcome was not ideal, but it was acceptable, given the circumstances. You disagree, and that's fine.



I can't imagine why all the population of Abyssinia keep bringing up doctors into this. Why not ask how botanists deal with this situation? When someone rushes into a hospital attacking people they call security and/or the cops.

It is a question that you should be able to answer as it is not just the police who deal with out of their face drug addicts. So how do others do it and why are you saying the police should just shoot them?

 

[000063]

I agree an attempt to get a weapon is an attack. I disagree running away, or in reality keeping a distance between you and the attacker is an attempt to deal with the situation which can been taken in isolation from having your gun drawn. Keeping backing off whilst the gun is holstered and using verbal skills would be.

A man running toward a cop with a drawn weapon can reasonably be assumed to be not listening. And you moved the goalposts. You earlier claimed that the cop didn't do anything besides draw his gun, planning to shoot the man. Not only is that not provable, an attempt to avoid physical combat clearly means he was trying to avoid using force. Now it doesn't count because he had his gun drawn, you claim. Yes, running away from a fight is the same as provoking one if you don't stop to put away your weapon. Makes sense.

Also, you are still wrong about the claim that a cop that can't keep hold of their weapon is a poor cop. Someone who is high or mentally disturbed can and have easily overpower and kill cops, not to mention any baseline physical advantages, such as a small female cop against a large man.

I think we agree one situation does not make the whole.

Sure do. Which makes me wonder why you keep trying to generalize.

Yes, I know a lot. Going by your argument because you disagree with me you do not know much about weapons, policing or hand to hand combat do you?

My argument was never that you don't know what you're talking about because you disagree with me. It was because you don't know what you're talking about because you repeatedly demonstrate ignorance and hasty generalizations and lack of knowledge about the subject at hand. For example, the police don't kick suspects in the nuts unless no other option is available. That could cause serious injury, and a lawsuit wasting who knows how much taxpayer money. It's also surprisingly easy to miss them, and people on drugs have a noted resistance to pain.

 

[Nessie]

It's not looking good for the cop. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/10/11/3045664/video-shows-naked-student-calm.html

I do not get this justification by Sheriff Cochran

"In my opinion it was proper to come out with the gun," Cochran said.

He said numerous police officers have been killed with their own weapons and that it is important for an officer to make sure a suspect isn't able to take control of a weapon. Collar did not touch Austin, but Austin got as close as five feet to the pointed gun before Austin fired."

If the fear is the cop will lose his gun, why go out with it in the first place?

The family lawyer Beasley "said the officer was not carrying a baton or pepper spray, even though university officials have said officers typically carry both in addition to a gun."

So why go out with the gun? A baton, peer spray and cuffs are what were far more appropriate. Especially since help was on hand very soon after the incident started.

 

[WildCat]

What was the gun for?

Why leave his other equipment in the office and go straight to the gun? I have not seen it confirmed but it appears he did not even take cuffs. So how was he to affect an arrest on a disturbed person?

He went out with the intention of stopping a naked guy from behaving scarily. With a gun drawn. I am quite sure his intention was to stop him from behaving scarily and that was by either he complied with instructions whilst at the point of a gun, or shoot him. There is no middle way, it is not as if he would pistol whip the guy or just throw his gun at him. But even if he complied with instructions, what then, what was the cuffless cop to do then?

I have repeatedly asked how the female officer who was punched was supposed to arrest the guy she had stopped. No one has answered (as of writing this). So same question about the cop and the student, how was he supposed to arrest the student with only a gun?

I do not think any of you have really thought this through.

Arrest at gunpoint:



Note nobody was shot, as happens 99.999% of the time.

Are you still confused?

 

[000063]

So it's needless cruelty to hurt his man parts but shooting him in the chest is ok?

Not only is it needless, but people on drugs have shrugged off gunfire, much less crushed nuts. And, as I said, needless risk to the officer.

And the fight was between drug users. Not sure if they were high at the time but they were pretty incoherent.

And I still don't know why he couldn't have gone back inside. It's one thing to retreat but it's another to have a locked door between you and the unstable naked man.

He tried retreating, and the suspect aggressively and repeatedly pursued. And despite Nessie's tears, the cop did ask the suspect to stop, repeatedly. The police are under no obligation to retreat indoors, even assuming there was a lockable door nearby, and if the person proceeded to hurt others, the cop is up for negligence.

 

[000063]

I understand many do go an entire career without shooting, this is about the excuses put out when people do shoot.

No, you said that even having a gun present makes it a deadly force situation, which is completely incorrect.

It seems that being armed is now a self fulfilling prophecy, whereby you shoot to stop people from getting your gun. The mere presence of a gun instantly escalates the situation to one where deadly force is used, without recourse to minimal use at first.

Most cops draw their weapons and still don't use them, ever.

Is size a major advantage? Please prove that. In Scotland we call it "wee man syndrome" when the shorter guys are found to be more aggressive.

A larger man can, in a fight, generally bring more weight and force to bear than a smaller one. This is physics. Even a Kubotan can markedly increase effectiveness in combat simply by adding a few ounces to a fist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_complex

My name is little Jock Elliot/and who daur meddle with me....

Which doesn't actually rebut me.

You are making the incorrect assumption a larger male will be able to out fight a smaller one.

I literally never said that. I said being big was an advantage.

I do think the student was acting unreasonably, I just do think his death was justifiable. Otherwise why not arrest him, try him and if the jury decides he was acting in a way that justifies his death then electrocute or use lethal injection as Alabama does?

Because he was presenting what could be reasonably interpreted as a deadly force threat to the officer. The cop asked him to stop several times, says the article you linked in the first post, so your complaints about "verbal skills" are objectively false.

Why justify summary execution by cop?

Keep demonstrating your ignorance.

 

[WildCat]

As an ex officer to me that is an open invitation to disaster, there are enough loose cannons in the force for a tragedy to happen and an innocent getting killed, it was why we were trained in unarmed disarming techniques, which on the whole with a few very few exceptions work.

How often were you and your fellow cops shot at?

 

[Nessie]

A man running toward a cop with a drawn weapon can reasonably be assumed to be not listening. And you moved the goalposts. You earlier claimed that the cop didn't do anything besides draw his gun, planning to shoot the man. Not only is that not provable, an attempt to avoid physical combat clearly means he was trying to avoid using force. Now it doesn't count because he had his gun drawn, you claim. Yes, running away from a fight is the same as provoking one if you don't stop to put away your weapon. Makes sense.

Also, you are still wrong about the claim that a cop that can't keep hold of their weapon is a poor cop. Someone who is high or mentally disturbed can and have easily overpower and kill cops, not to mention any baseline physical advantages, such as a small female cop against a large man.

Sure do. Which makes me wonder why you keep trying to generalize.



My argument was never that you don't know what you're talking about because you disagree with me. It was because you don't know what you're talking about because you repeatedly demonstrate ignorance and hasty generalizations and lack of knowledge about the subject at hand. For example, the police don't kick suspects in the nuts unless no other option is available. That could cause serious injury, and a lawsuit wasting who knows how much taxpayer money. It's also surprisingly easy to miss them, and people on drugs have a noted resistance to pain.

The cop left the office with his gun drawn pointing at the student who was walking about with his arms out and hands open. That is the key point. He went to a potential scuffle with someone exhibiting all the signs of a mental breakdown where drug induced or not with his gun drawn.

"The video shows the 5-foot-7, 140-pound student never got closer to the officer than 4 feet and didn't try to grab his weapon, Beasley contended"

The distance part and having to back off as some sort of attempt to avoid force is lame as there we plenty of other ways of dealing with this situation without going to a drawn gun first.

I find it amazing you speak out against kicking in the balls but support shooting. One of your fears about a kick in the balls is a law suit, yet here we have a shooting and a law suit. Kicking in the balls causes less or more sever injury than shooting? Kicking in the balls as opposed to shooting, what is the accuracy rate? Kicking in the balls and shooting, what is more effective to people who feel no pain?

What is your experience of making arrests?

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Screw lawsuits, a kick to the balls is most unlikely to stop a blitzed opponent. Why are you advocating useless move after useless move?

 

[Nessie]

Arrest at gunpoint:



Note nobody was shot, as happens 99.999% of the time.

Are you still confused?

Those cops used verbal skills and the right equipment. They judged that situation correctly. Nobody got shot.

That did not happen with the student. Are you still confused?

 

[000063]

Run away, is that really what cops are taught to do when pointing a gun at someone? Or do your really mean keep your distance as part of the training when you are pointing a gun at someone?

Both, perhaps. If you'd like to make a point, make it, don't ask false rhetorical questions you don't actually know the answers to.

Bear in mind it was the only thing the cop tried.

That and asking him to stop several times, which you claimed he didn't.

A number of people here have been arguing go for a cop and you deserve to be shot. They have also been justifying using deadly force in this case of the student. So it is reasonable to ask them is that the case for all situations where someone is high on drugs?

Only if you are trying to discuss drug use situations in general, instead of trying to create a straw man where they say "no" and you say "so why shoot this one guy?", like people haven't explained it for ten+ pages. It really is tiresome.

Let's say the cops pull over two people for busted tailights. One is given a warning and sent on their way. The other is hauled out of the car at gunpoint because a plate check reveals he's a wanted serial killer. There is a difference in the way cops handle various situations, and trying to lump all drug-related suspects into one category while ignoring the threat this one posed is not logical.

Is shooting the only way of dealing with such people?

See, you're still doing it.

I have not had an answer as saying that there are other ways of dealing with aggressive/mad/erratic people on drugs means they weaken their case for the cop being justified in shooting the student dead.

Nope. False equivalence. Other methods were, in fact, tried, despite your false binary. They didn't work. The suspect was simply not responsive to logic.

 

[Dan O.]

Arrest at gunpoint:



Note nobody was shot, as happens 99.999% of the time.

Are you still confused?

I only looked at the opening frame of that video and it looks like there are more than one officer on the scene. Austin however exited the police station alone with only his gun between him and the unknown. He should have stayed inside where he was safe until backup arrived.

 

[WildCat]

A number of people here have been arguing go for a cop and you deserve to be shot. They have also been justifying using deadly force in this case of the student. So it is reasonable to ask them is that the case for all situations where someone is high on drugs? Is shooting the only way of dealing with such people?

Yes, that is standard procedure for cops in the US when encountering someone on drugs. They just shoot them on sight. That's why there's millions of police shootings in the US every year.

You do love your straw men, don't you?

 

[000063]

Those cops used verbal skills and the right equipment. They judged that situation correctly. Nobody got shot.

That did not happen with the student. Are you still confused?

The article says the suspect was asked to stop repeatedly. Are you still confused?

On what objective basis are you determining these cops acted correctly?

 

[WildCat]

We do not know enough to say whether or not the cop could have just gone back inside after he started to maintain a distance between him and the student.

And then just watch when he attacks someone else?