How far will the excuses to shoot go?

[Giz]

Are you now trying to back down from your suggestion that people who attack the police should expect to be shot?

Surely people are saying that sometimes people who attack the police need to be shot. This situation may have been one of those times (but we haven't seen the video and so can't say for sure).

You appear to be certain that it was not necessary.

I don't see how your certainty is justified.

As a side note: I agree with the Monkey that society benefits from the Police being able to defend themselves robustly when necessary.

As a second side note: In Nessie world, are Police Officers the only responsible adults? Is everyone else (i.e. the drug taking, rampaging, rabidly biting, violent offenders) just passive victims who are not responsible for their own high risk behavior landing them in trouble?

 

[Nessie]

No, it doesn't.

Are you really claiming he went outside with the intent to shoot the guy?

He only took his gun and drew it straight away. How else was he going to arrest him?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I was responding to a statement that shooting is how to deal with people who assault the police and pointing out a flaw.

Having some armed police is necessary. This thread is about the lame excuses that are used to justify the use of a gun.

Needing guns is clearly a sign that the police in question are just not trained enough. Be happy you convinced me.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Kid? at what age does someone stop being a 'kid'?

Who decided 18 was the cutoff? To me a kid who is in college (it was his first year) could still be dependent upon his parents. I consider my 23 yr old an adult, but at 18 he was still a kid. It's a transition, not a magical birthday.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The point I was making (at least twice)( and by at least one other)(plus suggested in one of the reports) is that the student was reported as having taken LSD BUT his actions were not those of a person on LSD. That's why I noted that there was a good chance that either he took something thinking it was LSD and it wasn't OR it was LSD but with one or more other drugs mixed in (not at all unheard of.........). autopsy should clear that up.

It's obvious he was either mentally ill or intoxicated on something.

It's not relevant, as there was no struggle. The cop was afraid and shot. So it's what the cop reasonably believed, and what actions were reasonable, not necessarily whether the kid was on a drug induced adrenalin rush.

 

[WildCat]

He only took his gun and drew it straight away. How else was he going to arrest him?

So you are claiming he went out to shoot the naked guy!

 

[CORed]

The proper weapon for an incident like this is pepper spray.

Pepper spray, a taser, or a good old fashioned whack with a baton would have been appropriate. This sorry excuse for a police officer needs to be fired and charged with murder.

 

[triforcharity]

There are no parallels in the OP case to the traffic stop.

I disagree. It was a "routine" incident (college student high on drugs) and a "routine" traffic stop. I use the "scare quotes" around routine because anyone in LE will say that nothing is routine.

As for the percentage of bad cop actions, we both have a dilemma. The number of sensational cases the news media latches on to can be is misleading.

I fixed that for you. The vast majority of cases that I personally have heard, the officer was justified. There was one recently where a tazer was used, and the officer was eventually fired, and had to surrender his LE certification.

But the idea the police find themselves innocent most of the time? That's equally problematic data.

Maybe other places work differently than Florida, but here an outside department (Florida Department of Law Enforcement) investigates any officer involved shooting, and any claims of wrongdoing by police, including excessive force. They work side by side the the State's Attorney, and the Attorney General's office. It must be cleared by all 3 of those departments before it's declared a good shoot.

I work with police in my business, a number of different departments. I find the internal culture to be disturbing. While there are many decent and competent cops, my experience is the culture itself suggests the number of real problems is significant.

I do also, and I haven't personally seen what you're describing. But, maybe I have a slight bias. But, I am sure that in some places, the "good ol' boy network" is alive and well.

Cheers Ma'am!!

 

[triforcharity]

Yeah, this sounds more like PCP than LSD.

I'd agree. In fact, I would almost be willing to be that the toxicology reports will come back with LSD, and something else. PCP is the most likely option, IMO.

For anyone interested on what I base my opinion on, look here.

http://www.drugs.com/pcp.html

Specifically, the part under "Effects of PCP use".

 

[triforcharity]

Well it's hardly surprising; in a mindset where confronting a police officer in any way is apparently grounds for a shooting, finding an unjustified one is likely to be very difficult.

Even one's that I've heard about, read about, and studied more in depth, I honestly haven't found one that I thought the officer wasn't justified.

 

[triforcharity]

Nvm.

 

[triforcharity]

You are now resorting to making stuff up.

Nope, that was a question. See the ? at the end of that sentence?

I ahve dealt with plenty of people who have no apparent pain threshold.

Excellent. In a controlled environment, correct? How about outside of a secure facility?

Bear in mind the British and German police deal with such people unarmed or without going for their guns to anything like the extent the US police do.

Keep in mind also that British and German police also don't have to contend with a relatively large portion of their citizens being able to access guns either. And also take into consideration that is not going to change anytime soon.

I go for cuffing over all other options. Then you get much better control. That is not absurd or foolish at it works, unlike your speculation.

Really? Did you watch the video? The officer was in the process of "cuffing" the suspect, and it almost cost her dearly.

Speculation? Hardly.

Should the cop have risked the students life by only taking his gun with him? A risk that got the student killed.

I'll agree, the officer should have had LTL tools at his disposal. However, the rest of your statement is speculation, as you don't know if even if he had a tazer/mace/baton/etc that it wouldn't have escalated to the officer using deadly force in the end.

The STUDENT'S actions and personal choices, got the STUDENT killed. Nobody else MADE him do what he did.

 

[triforcharity]

All I can say is that I have dealt with people who have had no pain threshold, but do not know what drugs they were on.

Cool. As have I. Numerous times.

Is a USA police tactic to kill people high on PCP since apparently nothing else works?

Nope, nobody claimed that, other than you.

Have you dealt with someone high on PCP?

Last week in fact. High on PCP and a slew of other drugs, including "special K" (which is Ketamine, another drug similar to PCP)

The example shows how being unarmed does not stop people in Scotland dealing with mad men, in this case high on Allah and determined to kill themselves.

Yes, MANY people. It's happened in the US too. Ask the "Shoe Bomber" how we'll whoop some ass if you try to kill us.

 

[triforcharity]

So the only way to deal with a kid high on suspected PCP is to kill them?

Nope, not what I claimed, only what you WISH you read. Not true at all.

 

[triforcharity]

So how are the police to arrest anyone? There comes a point where you have to get up close and cuff them. How else are the police to affect an arrest?

Way to miss the point completely. Awesome. Are you intentionally being obtuse?

What is your experience of that?

Arresting someone? None, I am not a LEO. I do have plenty of real world experience dealing with patients who are high, and extremely combative.

How should such people be arrested?

With any means necessary to protect the safety of the officer and anyone at risk of injury.

 

[triforcharity]

On reflection I've concluded that yes, I like living in a country where people expect attacking a cop will be likely to get themselves killed. I think its better for public order that way, as opposed to people thinking it'll be safe and fun to attack a cop because the cop won't hit back hard, and will rush to nuture any scraped knees with bandaids and Bactine. The point of police is to preserve order, not to grant happy endings to the criminally idiotic and idiotically criminal antics of people who are deliberately disrupting that order.

I couldn't agree more. Cheers to that!!

If I was in a similar situation, I would do the same thing.

 

[triforcharity]

Needle stick injuries, blood exchange unless excessive are highly unlikely to result in disease transfer. Or how do you prose medical staff manage the risks with violent patients? It is risk of the job, just like all jobs carry some risk.

So, you guys in Scotland don't have latex gloves?

I bet you do, and I bet that 99.9% of the time, when handling a patient, you use them, don't you.

And BTW, a bite is high risk for Hep. A, B, and C infection. Not so much with HIV/Aids, but certainly there, especially if the person has a bloody mouth.

I understand those risks very well. I take EVERY precaution to protect myself, including a splash mask. However, an officer doesn't really have the luxury of calling a time out to put on gloves and other PPE.

 

[triforcharity]

I am sure all UK forces are the same. US police appear to be different and can use a gun to arrest in instances where such seems inappropriate.

First off, if an officer draws his weapon, it is for one of two reasons. #1 is to protect his safety, and compel a suspect to surrender peacefully. The second one is to protect his life, and the lives of those around them, and will almost always resort in a suspect being taken off in a body bag.

But, you're just building these strawman over and over the place. It's getting crowded in here with all of them just lying about. Can you clean some up please?

Most departments in the US issue a baton, mace, and a tazer to their officers. And they use them. Often. You're basing your entire argument off of ONE incident, which is NOT the norm. There's a logical fallacy there. Can you name it?

UK training may well save lives if given to US police, so long as they make sure they take their baton and cuffs out with them or have them to hand for emergency use.

Oh, you mean like every department in the US does? Oh, right....njsdijbkjb av'
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Damn, tripped over one of your damn strawman. Almost dropped my weapon too. Get them cleaned up, pronto. Before someone gets hurt.

 

[TragicMonkey]

A little reminder of what you said. All I want you go.co is confirm if.mentally sick people or students who a bad trip on drugs are included in the group you think should expect to be killed.

I'm not backing down from anything. PEOPLE WHO VIOLENTLY ATTACK A COP SHOULD EXPECT TO GET KILLED. It's very sad when they commit their criminal assault as a result of mental illness, but it's not unexpected. The tragedy in those cases is the mental illness, not the reasonably expected outcome.

You stick your hand in fire, you get burned. You jump into the tiger enclosure at the zoo, you get your head bitten through. You attack a cop, you get shot. These are natural, expected, reasonable consequences of actions. If you aren't in control of your actions, that's very sad for you. But we aren't going to outlaw fire, defang the tigers, and disarm the cops because one of the million people who stick their hands in fire, jump in with the tigers, and rush screaming at the cop to assault him are sadly mentally crazy in the cabeza. The world doesn't get bubblewrapped because a tiny slice of the population is too sadly wacky to be able to refrain from committing crimes.

 

[triforcharity]

A little reminder of what you said. All I want you go.co is confirm if.mentally sick people or students who a bad trip on drugs are included in the group you think should expect to be killed.

If you try to attack a police officer, expect to be shot, yes. Absolutely, 100% of the time.

Attack cop= forfeit your life. I'm down with that rule.

(I know, this is gonna make you SOOOO mad!!)