What is the best evidence for Poltergeists?

[Andyman409]

You seem to be saying this as though it's a good thing.

It's not.

I think it's a cool story, bro.

And yes, it does defy explanation, mainly due to a lack of the kind of information that would facilitate a proper analysis.

I hope you aren't falling into the trap of equating inexplicable with supernatural. They aren't anything alike.

I said seems to defy explanation. sheesh. At any rate, I'm also interested in what probably happened, not whether or not it warrants belief. If it was deception, it probably wasn't from the poster- Although I'll be the first to admit that it *might* be a trick by someone to see how stubborn skeptics supposedly are.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Here is a case that seemingly defies explanation, being from a skeptic and all. What do you think of it?

I'd first point out that lack of an explanation is not an argument in favor of any particular explanation (such as the non-explanation that something supernatural is going on).

Second, being a good skeptic does not entail simply saying you don't believe in any particular thing. It's about following the evidence to wherever it might lead. You examine all available evidence and even then only provisionally accept whatever proposition that evidence points to. (If the balance of all the evidence changes, you are free to change your provisionally held conclusion.) [ETA: A skeptic is not someone who starts with a conclusion and then backtracks looking for evidence for it. You start with the evidence to see where it leads.]

Third, what we have is an account posted on the forum by an anonymous computer user.

As such, it's not reliable. The plural of anecdote is not evidence. If an account is worthless as evidence, it's just worthless. You could collect thousands of them, and their total value as evidence would still be zero.

It could be the person was lying (or trolling, or playing a joke), or it could be the person was deluded to a greater or lesser extent. There's absolutely nothing about the account that makes me think that anything supernatural has happened.

Have you ever attended a magic show? Have you ever seen optical illusions? Have you ever had dreams? Do you accept that it's possible to misperceive reality, even to hallucinate?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

At any rate, I'm also interested in what probably happened, not whether or not it warrants belief.

What if nothing happened? What if it's a fictional account? Doesn't the question of whether or not it warrants belief come into play? Or are you just assuming that the account is a true account of something that really happened?

If it was deception, it probably wasn't from the poster

What is that assertion of probability based on?

Although I'll be the first to admit that it *might* be a trick by someone to see how stubborn skeptics supposedly are.

You mean someone might have made up a fake account that only the gullible would accept as a true account of events that actually happened as a way to see how stubborn skeptics are in insisting on evidence-based conclusions? What a bizarre notion.

I'd sooner think it was a troll just seeing how many people he could get to take him seriously at face value. That's happened.

Or, as I mentioned, it could be someone who is deluded to a greater or lesser extent. There are people who experience full blown hallucinations, people who confuse hypnogogic or hypnopompic dreams for waking reality, people who confabulate* memories that are not at all accurate to reality, and so on.

*ETA: This kind of confabulation is usually not intentionally deceptive. The person might sincerely believe the memory is accurate. Even particularly vivid memories can be inaccurate in astonishing and dramatic ways. Memory doesn't work like a video recorder. It's quite plastic.

 

[GeeMack]

I said seems to defy explanation. sheesh. At any rate, I'm also interested in what probably happened, [...]

Interesting that you're interested yet you seem to have ignored the plausible likely explanations I gave you just a couple posts above...

[...] People make stuff up all the time. The world is filled with liars, crazy people, attention whores. It's ubiquitous. [...]

What probably happened was someone told the tale. What probably didn't happen was those things described in the tale.

[...] not whether or not it warrants belief. If it was deception, it probably wasn't from the poster- Although I'll be the first to admit that it *might* be a trick by someone to see how stubborn skeptics supposedly are.

There's a reason why you're finding it difficult to find any skeptics here who will indulge your desire for poltergeists to be real. Would you like to know why that is?

 

[Akhenaten]

You seem to be saying this as though it's a good thing.

It's not.

I think it's a cool story, bro.

And yes, it does defy explanation, mainly due to a lack of the kind of information that would facilitate a proper analysis.

I hope you aren't falling into the trap of equating inexplicable with supernatural. They aren't anything alike.

I said seems to defy explanation. sheesh.

Yes, my apologies. I was editing my post to reflect this at the same time that you were responding to my misstatement.

At any rate, I'm also interested in what probably happened, not whether or not it warrants belief.

You seem to be starting from a position of belief that something happened.

I'd starting from the position of knowing that someone has told a story about something happening.

We'll end up in different places.

If it was deception, it probably wasn't from the poster- Although I'll be the first to admit that it *might* be a trick by someone to see how stubborn skeptics supposedly are.

You seem to be ruling out self-deception. I wouldn't.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Back to how skeptics approach evidence to underscore a point:

We have to consider ALL the evidence, not just the shred of whatever anecdote is offered.

Comparing the handful of possible explanations for this anecdote posted by an anonymous forum user that I have proffered to the explanation that something supernatural happened, I would observe that everything we know about physics shows that cupboards don't slam open by themselves, objects don't float around, people don't vanish, but we do know that memory is plastic, we do know that people can lie, we do know that people can be deluded to a greater or lesser extent. We've got mountains of evidence in favor of the explanations I suggested, and we have only the selfsame anecdotes we are seeking to explain as evidence for the supernatural theory.

There is no accumulated irrefutable evidence that poltergeists exist, yet there is a voluminous mass of undeniable evidence that the things in my explanations exist.

The "poltergeist" theory would require throwing away or at least significantly altering fundamental principles of entire realms of knowledge. (And indeed then that purported "explanation" would actually cause us to have much more to explain than what it explains since it would remove all the explanations we have for countless laboratory observations of physics, optics, etc.) My explanations require no such thing.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

And of course there is the problem that the "poltergiest-did-it" explanation is no explanation at all*. You'd have to first define in some measurable way what a poltergeist is. You'd have to figure out some measurement that we could take that would distinguish a poltergiest-did-it phenomenon from, for example, a "Zeus-did-it" phenomenon.

*As mentioned in my previous post, it's really worse than that since accepting it would require the suspension of revision of entire branches of science such that a huge body of phenomena that had previously been explained would then need to be explained.

 

[PixyMisa]

Wow, man, like deep.

It is, yes. It's critical to keep this in mind when examining claims of the paranormal. People's senses are not reliable. Their memories are not reliable. Their thinking is not reliable. Stories are at best a starting point for looking for evidence; by themselves, they're of interest only to anthropologists.

Of course, anybody who writes a science fiction novel is a fool.

The book was pretty bad. On the other hand, it gave us the film Lifeforce. Which was awful, but had Mathilda May wandering around without her clothes, and for that I'll forgive a lot.

Obviously, like Colin Wilson, who has written over a hundred factual and non-factual books including numerous best-sellers and works of acknowledged literary merit.

None of which is in the slightest bit relevant.

No you're not, you're pretending to know something about a subject of which you are entirely ignorant. Yet again.

I'm not saying I'm having great success, but pointing out that you are talking rubbish is a gain, if a small one.

I'm talking as someone who (1) actually researches what they talk about

Nope.

And with that I'll be taking a couple of weeks break from the forums to get on with other stuff, so feel free to bluster and have the last word.

Bye. When you get back, we'll be here, and you'll still be wrong.

 

[PixyMisa]

That was well said Baron, if somewhat abrasive.

It was a melange of strawmen, red herrings, arguments from authority, ad hominems, and self-righteousness in defence of utter nonsense. How was any of that "well said"?

 

[windsshadow]

On Poltergeist. I claim to be no expert. My claims are not admissable (from what I have read on the application) i experience the "Spirit World" Anumber of different ways. 1) Clairvoyant. Can read peoples minds, anwer Questions before they are asked. 2)Objects moving. 3) # Injuries from being pushed. 4) Hearing voices for 9 years. 5) Being "touched/poked/prodded", by "Spirits". 6) Have Dr.s to submit what I have experienced. P.S. Tried to download application to speak of these things and could not download. HHHmmnn??? Poltergeist or Talking story?? (P.P.S. ...Truth!!!)

 

[PixyMisa]

I said seems to defy explanation.

But it doesn't.

Explanation: It's a story.

 

[Mashuna]

It was a melange of strawmen, red herrings, arguments from authority, ad hominems, and self-righteousness in defence of utter nonsense. How was any of that "well said"?

The spelling was ok?

 

[PixyMisa]

The spelling was ok?

True. The grammar was pretty awful though.

 

[windsshadow]

plus...I have experienced "visions" and dreams. Such as a shout going around the world in 1998...sayin"Let My People Go...let MY people go...Let my PEOPLE GO!"( A Voice!)

 

[windsshadow]

Thanks Pixymesa but it is not just a "story" for people over the age of 13. It is Truth.

 

[Andyman409]

I'll admit, my writings do make it look like I privilege the paranormal hypothesis. But I assure you I do not. I only question whether a naturalistic explanation could be given to a case, given what we know. If not, the paranormal explanation does not win by default. Now, this thread has already gone off track, so I'll ask one more question, before going off to my new thread:

Why is it that everyone who is informed on ghosts and poltergeists believes them? Isn't that suspicious? I mean, when it comes to UFO's, Cryptzoid and psi, the skeptics know what they are talking about. There is an actual engagement with the "top tier" evidence. But what about ghosts and poltergeists? Where are the ghost skeptics who have read dozens and dozens of books on the topic, and concluded it was bull? Where are these skeptics? I mean, I know we cant expect a skeptic to read half as many books as a firm believer. This I am aware of. But doesn't the whole thing just seem... suspicious?

I cant be the only one seeing this, can I?

 

[Andyman409]

On Poltergeist. I claim to be no expert. My claims are not admissable (from what I have read on the application) i experience the "Spirit World" Anumber of different ways. 1) Clairvoyant. Can read peoples minds, anwer Questions before they are asked. 2)Objects moving. 3) # Injuries from being pushed. 4) Hearing voices for 9 years. 5) Being "touched/poked/prodded", by "Spirits". 6) Have Dr.s to submit what I have experienced. P.S. Tried to download application to speak of these things and could not download. HHHmmnn??? Poltergeist or Talking story?? (P.P.S. ...Truth!!!)

If you can use your powers on demand, try getting the 1 million dollars. If you can move objects with your mind, it should be easy.

 

[Akhenaten]

plus...I have experienced "visions" and dreams. Such as a shout going around the world in 1998...sayin"Let My People Go...let MY people go...Let my PEOPLE GO!"( A Voice!)

Thanks Pixymesa but it is not just a "story" for people over the age of 13. It is Truth.

The hell?

 

[zooterkin]

Why is it that everyone who is informed on ghosts and poltergeists believes them?

What are you basing this on?

 

[Andyman409]

What are you basing this on?

From what I've read, there are a lot of parapsychological claims regarding apparitions, poltergeists and whatnot that simply haven't been addressed. One example off the top of my head comes from this book:

a poll showed that ghost experiences don't leave as much of a psychological impression as alien abductions, so they probably involve different psychological mechanisms.

This stat has been used as evidence against the idea of ghosts being hypnagogic hallucinations- one of the most popular explanations of them. The thing is... I have not been able to find a critique of this stat. Was it published under the skeptics noses?