What really bothers me about this election...

R.Mackey

Philosopher
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
7,854
... is the lies. But no, this isn't quite the thread you think it is.

Look, I know politicians lie. This will be the sixth Presidential election I've cast a ballot in, and I was interested well before that, so I've long since learned the ugly truth of politics. Lying is one of the key characteristics of politicians listed in the Audubon field recognition guide. Lying happens in practically every campaign, and is indeed happening on both sides of the current Presidential contest.

However, the strategy of lies coming from Romney's campaign does, I believe, represent something new and unwelcome.

If by now you've decided that I'm just robotically repeating Democratic talking points, then I recommend you take a nice cold shower and attempt to explain where John Stewart got it wrong yesterday. Or William Saletan. Or the folks at the Daily Kos blog. Heck, I can count several retractions made by Romney's campaign without having to look for them.

But what's unusual about this is the underlying strategy. Rachel Maddow today collected a large number of walkbacks and opined that it was in fact deliberate -- that Romney's campaign had purposely decided that Romney, the candidate, would publicly make one statement, while Romney, the election machine, would then quietly substitute another, conflicting, generally more conservative correction. She speculated this is to desensitize voters to what Romney actually says, either to protect him from any and all countermeasures, or to pander to both the conservative base and the moderate middle simultaneously.

Now this seems a bit overly conspiratorial to me -- or, to put it another way, I don't think Romney and his campaign are that clever. Certainly I don't think they've followed a coherent master strategy that only now begins to appear successful and "brilliant." But one has to admit that, however they arrived at it, this approach has yielded some bizarre and spectacular results. I was amazed that the recent debate score turned out to be so lopsided. Let's face it, the principal criticism of Obama's performance is that Romney lied his way through the whole thing, and Obama let him get away with it. Traditionally, this does not award the victory to the liar. At best, he gets credited with a clever escape. But not this time. Romney was credited for being "persuasive," despite the fact that nobody (Romney included) seems to know what it is that he's actually selling.

Except, of course, for himself.

This is what bothers me. Usually the lies are exaggerations, omissions, stretches, or even the odd fabrication in support of a philosophy or policy idea. All politicians do this, and some would even argue that's part of their job. But Romney brings an entirely new dimension to the art of prevarication. He has no policies. Or, at least, no one can say with any certainty exactly what they are, out of the vast and contradictory labyrinth of his claims. His running mate certainly doesn't know.

While this makes Romney difficult to attack, the real problem -- my real heartburn -- is that it also makes discussion of rational policy impossible. Consider, if you will, four years ago when Candidate Obama ran against a nice if stodgy old man named John McCain, someone I'd consider to be a rather mediocre GOP candidate. He had some different ideas, and he was often vague to the point of frustration, but we knew where he was coming from. One could draw a contrast between him and Obama, and one could see the pluses and minuses of each. McCain seemed like a reasonable guy even where I disagreed with him. Even if I thought he was dead wrong.

With Romney I can't do that. Nobody can. The whole contest has now devolved into a morass of trying to define him, which will prove as elusive as nailing Jello to the wall. There's no point to debating his policies. He'll just deny ownership and shift the goalposts. It's a strategy ideally coordinated for the Low Information Voter, someone who seemed to be courted by the GOP last time, but this time around it's not even subtle.

All of which leaves me to ask, again: Why is he even running? Narcissism? If so, he's done a masterful job of making the race about him instead of about governance of the country.

Alternately, does he have some secret plan? What is it? Why can he not articulate it?

It all reminds me of wrestling in the mud with conspiracy theorists, charlatans, and snake-oil salesmen. It means we won't even be able to discuss the legitimate gripes with Obama's policies, nor is there any incentive for him to shape up any longer. Now it's all about stagecraft.

And that, Romney, is where you have taken us, and for that I want to see you lose by a fifty point margin. But you won't, any more than Michael Bay will lose money on his stupid movies. Mediocrity is contagious.

I welcome your comments, complaints, even rants. Passion is a good thing. Just please don't change your position every time you post, that's all I ask. :mad:
 
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My brother used to drive me crazy with a game he used to play with me when we were kids. He would stare at me, non stop.... drive me nuts. Then I would say..... "STOP LOOKING AT ME". To which he would reply.... "Ok, I won't look at you if you don't look at me."... the terms which I would agree. Then immediately after the deal he would begin staring at me again..... I'd get mad and say "STOP STARING ME!!".....At which point he'd get mad and put on this phoney outrage and say "how did you know you were looking at me?".... "YOU MUST HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT ME"..... I hated that game.

I don't know what that has to do the Romney, other then when I see him speak... I always think of my brother... dirty tricksters.
 
If by now you've decided that I'm just robotically repeating Democratic talking points, then I recommend you take a nice cold shower and attempt to explain where John Stewart got it wrong yesterday. Or William Saletan. Or the folks at the Daily Kos blog. Heck, I can count several retractions made by Romney's campaign without having to look for them.

So I looked at the Daily Kos post and it counts this as a lie:

“People have been waiting a long time for a farm bill,” Romney said, saying the president “has to exert the kind of presidential leadership” to get such a bill enacted.

Apparently that's a lie because:
The House Agriculture Committee passed a crappy farm bill, with too egregious cuts to food stamps.
Ooooookay.

As for Saletan, he flags this "lie":
“There’s no legislation with regards to abortion that I’m familiar with that would become part of my agenda.”
And that's a "lie" because there are loopholes in the words "legislation", "familiar", and "agenda".

I didn't bother to watch the Jon Stewart clip. Sorry, put it in words and I'll read it.

What really bothers me about this election is people claiming that someone is lying based on some odd definition of the word "lie".
 
I noticed you stopped short of actually claiming Romney isn't lying egregiously in his campaign. :D

Heck, with those talents, you should be on his team!
 
All of which leaves me to ask, again: Why is he even running? Narcissism? If so, he's done a masterful job of making the race about him instead of about governance of the country.
I thought an answer to this question might lie in his previous electoral forays. After extensive research (translation: 10 minutes on Wikipedia) his formal political career began with a loss to Sen. Kennedy in 1994 for the Senate. After the Olympics, he won the governorship in 2002. Now he's running for president.

In no instance can I find a compelling theme to his campaigns. In all three cases, his running seems to have been a fluke of an opening not of his creation. That is certainly true this year in light of the clown car collection of his opponents in the primary. Jon Stewart says Obama is the luckiest man in the world; I think the same can be said for Mittens.

In short, the best answer I can come up with is opportunism and ego.
 
As for Saletan, he flags this "lie":

And that's a "lie" because there are loopholes in the words "legislation", "familiar", and "agenda".

Saletan didn't use the word "lie". But I find his argument persuasive.

Let's just say that Romney didn't say what the headline writers thought he said or implied that he said.

I'd call it a misleading statement.

Anyone who cares about abortion rights shouldn't be fooled. The main thing a president can do with this issue is to choose Supreme Court justices. He also made no commitment to veto legislation that restricts abortion. And he could use executive power in other ways to restrict it.
 
My brother used to drive me crazy with a game he used to play with me when we were kids. He would stare at me, non stop.... drive me nuts. Then I would say..... "STOP LOOKING AT ME". To which he would reply.... "Ok, I won't look at you if you don't look at me."... the terms which I would agree. Then immediately after the deal he would begin staring at me again..... I'd get mad and say "STOP STARING ME!!".....At which point he'd get mad and put on this phoney outrage and say "how did you know you were looking at me?".... "YOU MUST HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT ME"..... I hated that game.

I don't know what that has to do the Romney, other then when I see him speak... I always think of my brother... dirty tricksters.

WTF, we did that too and I haven't thought about that since like 1989. I feel weird now, deja vu weird.
 
Mitt Romney is like the bible of politicians. Say so many mutually contradictory things that people can cherry-pick the parts they like and ignore the parts they don't.
 
Are any of you concerned about Obama's lies?

I guess it's lucky we have the last four years to have some idea of what Obama is going to do. I, for the life of me, don't know what Romney is going to do. I guess if I look at his record in MA he'll probably be even more liberal than Obama was!
 
Did you even bother to read the OP? :rolleyes: Evidence points to "no."

OK, so we have something like this:

Concerned with Obama lies: NO
Concerned with Romney lies: YES
Concerned that Obama is rich: NO
Concerned that Romney is rich: YES
Offended when Obama is called a Rich Black Guy: YES
Offended when Romney is called a Rich White Guy: NO
 
OK, so we have something like this:

Concerned with Obama lies: NO
Concerned with Romney lies: YES
Concerned that Obama is rich: NO
Concerned that Romney is rich: YES
Offended when Obama is called a Rich Black Guy: YES
Offended when Romney is called a Rich White Guy: NO
Being politicians, they both lie. I happen to prefer Obama's lies to Romney's. However, if we approach this objectively and understand that the next four years in this country will not be substantially different no matter who wins, we should re-elect Obama. Ex-presidents get a substantial lifetime pension ($460k/year?), health care and free secret service protection for life. It is in the best interest of the country to have as few ex-presidents as possible on the public dole. If we are so concerned about deficit spending that we would consider defunding PBS, let's minimize the expense of having a whole bunch of ex-presidents around. As long as our choice is two mediocre guys, make the incumbent work for his pension and benefits for as long as possible.
 

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