How far will the excuses to shoot go?

[Nessie]

The officer was concerned about being physically assaulted, so you left out "point blank range" in your justification pity party.

This a theme, do not scare an American or they will shoot. Americans cannot take a slap or handle themselves in any form of confrontation and go straight to lethal force.

 

[LTC8K6]

No your right, he did not bother with a baton that day. As I asked are you allowed to patrol not fully equipped?

He did have other officers with him, all of whom stood back.

He spent 27 seconds trying to talk the man down as in threatening him with his gun and only after he had come back to the scene.

"More deputies arrived, spoke to Sandberg and appeared to be looking in the direction of the field, according to the letter. At 4:46 a.m., an officer stated over the radio that Loggins was returning. Over the next 27 seconds, Sandberg repeatedly commanded Loggins to stop and said, "Show me your hands," and "Don't you get in the car or I'll shoot you."

The report states the incident started at 4.40. So for six minutes he made no effort to go after the man or make contact with him. Neither did any other police officer. They all watched as he walked back to his car and got in, supposedly fearing for the children's lives, yet the police left the children in the car.

Then having made pathetic attempts at non lethal actions against the man, he was killed.

He rightly made no attempt at non-lethal actions, imo. He tried to talk to the perp.

He did not intend to let the deranged man drive off with the kids.

Good shoot, imo.

 

[LTC8K6]

This a theme, do not scare an American or they will shoot. Americans cannot take a slap or handle themselves in any form of confrontation and go straight to lethal force.

American crooks and crazies are just way tougher and meaner than any others.

 

[Nessie]

First of all, You were the one that was trying to portray your past experiences as an illustration of your expertise in the area. As such, your past experience in this situation is quite relevant.

You keep pointing to all of the things you've dealt with (working alone or with colleagues, people you knew, didn't know, etc.), but at no point have you given any indication that you've been in exactly his situation (no backup, facing an attacker unknown to you (but who is obviously "in shape"), not responding to commands and chasing you, without the presence of a tazer and/or a door to protect you.) Unless you've faced that same situation (preferably multiple times), without getting a scratch on you, then you don't really have any evidence that such a situation can be resolved peacefully.


What, minor injuries? I thought your awesome abilities would be able to disable any and all threats with just your mind (or with your pinky and a toothpick, if you need to actually resort to violence) without ever having any sort of injury ever.


Obviously the guy that was shot in this case wasn't someone who was 'backing down'.

No I have not had that precise situation. But I have been attacked on numerous occasions and apart from minor injuries have survived all and no one died. I am no fighter, I get a few hours of Officer Safety training with baton, handcuffs and CS spray a year. That opinion is then backed up by my colleagues and actually numerous American cops who do affect arrests and calm violent situations without going straight to deadly force.

That is my point, being confronted with a naked man with drug and/or mental health issues is not as scary or as risky as you try and make it out to be.

If you and that cop think it is then he should not be in the job and you need to go into hiding so as to avoid all scary situations.

The excuses people try and come up with to justify his actions are lame.

 

[WildCat]

Nope, I would expect a police officer worth their uniform to get right up to that man to try and establish better verbal contact and they to use baton and cuffs to stop him from driving off before as a final last resort shooting at him. An option we do not have, so we are more inclined to get up close and use non lethal physical force.

 

[LTC8K6]

I'd like to see the police reports filed by the students he "attacked" earlier to get an idea of what exactly was reported and when.

According to The Vanguard FB page, reports were filed about the incidents.

I'd like to know how much time passed between the LSD ingestion and the shooting.

 

[WildCat]

No your right, he did not bother with a baton that day. As I asked are you allowed to patrol not fully equipped?

He wasn't patrolling. He was in the station, probably doing desk duty of some sort. Writing reports, answering the phone. Perhaps his baton was in his locker at the back of the station, near the door to the squad car parking lot. Maybe it was in the squad car. We don't know that he had it immediately available when the emergency arose, and yet you are assuming this to be the case.

He did have other officers with him, all of whom stood back.

Maybe protocol is at least one officer stays in the station, no matter what. It's embarrassing when someone calls the police with an emergebcy and nobody answers the phone.

But I'm just speculating, just like you are.

He spent 27 seconds trying to talk the man down as in threatening him with his gun and only after he had come back to the scene.

And your evidence he had more than 27 seconds is...?

I'm not going to derail the topic further with that other incident.

 

[LTC8K6]

If they can find out who gave Collar the drugs, they will likely seek to charge that person with his death.

 

[Joe Random]

The officer was concerned about being physically assaulted, so you left out "point blank range" in your justification pity party.

How often have you fired a hand gun?

 

[Segnosaur]

First of all, You were the one that was trying to portray your past experiences as an illustration of your expertise in the area. As such, your past experience in this situation is quite relevant.

You keep pointing to all of the things you've dealt with (working alone or with colleagues, people you knew, didn't know, etc.), but at no point have you given any indication that you've been in exactly his situation (no backup, facing an attacker unknown to you (but who is obviously "in shape"), not responding to commands and chasing you, without the presence of a tazer and/or a door to protect you.) Unless you've faced that same situation (preferably multiple times), without getting a scratch on you, then you don't really have any evidence that such a situation can be resolved peacefully.

No I have not had that precise situation.

So, in that case, you don't really have any actual experience to back up your arguments.

Nice to know.

But I have been attacked on numerous occasions and apart from minor injuries...

Wait a second... you've been attacked. But its never been 1-on-1 with a muscular charging assailant you didn't know, with no tazer. So, whenever you've been attacked, it sounds like its always been in circumstances that were less dangerous than what the officer was dealing with.

Yet, despite the less dangerous circumstances, you still ended up injured.

That opinion is then backed up by my colleagues and actually numerous American cops...

Please point out these 'numerous American cops'.

And are they responding in particular to this incident, or just the general concept of "don't kill if you don't have to"? If its the second, I rather suspect that at least a few would probably feel the shooting was justified.

...who do affect arrests and calm violent situations without going straight to deadly force.

Except the officer didn't go "straight to deadly force". He ordered the student to stop. He ran from the student.

That is my point, being confronted with a naked man with drug and/or mental health issues is not as scary or as risky as you try and make it out to be.

You claim its "not risky" but you also said you've never been in precisely his same circumstance.

 

[RemieV]

So aiming a Tazer gun, and pulling the trigger, requires "extensive training"?

No different than firing their sidearm.


Look, in the end, there's more to this than meets the eye.
The simple reality is that 15 or 20 years ago, campus security was not typically armed with semi-auto handguns.
When I was going to college, they had a radio, and a flashlight, thats it.

With some of the campus (and other) mass shootings that have taken place here in the US over the last years, I'm not surprised to see a major change in this policy.

However, it makes absolutely no sense that this officer wasnt armed with at least two other non-lethal means, such as pepper spray or the above mentioned tazer gun.

I'm fairly confident a major college campus could afford a tazer gun, in addition to a sidearm for their officers.

To not do so show's a lack of judgment in my opinion, and ultimately may result in major legal problems for them, regardless if the officer is cleared of the shooting or not.

It's more a question of common sense, and making sure your security forces have adequate tools to do the best job they can.


Recently, here in NY, (well NYC) there was a man shot and killed in/near the Times Square area, who was allegedly carrying a knife, and had brandished it at officers who were following him. Instead of using a non lethal means, which I'm honestly not sure are issued to them or not, he was shot multiple times and killed.

From the following video, you can clearly see there were multiple police officers on the scene, and in my opinion it would have been easy enough to subdue him with out riddling him full of bullets.



Now, I'm quite aware this is a different situation, but there are also some similarities in the choice to use deadly force. If you only give an officer one tool as an option, he/she will most likely choose that option.

As the information has come in about the shooting of the college student, there are several glaring errors in my opinion.

1) should have been armed with at least one non-lethal option.
2) should have been more than one officer to respond to this type of incident.
3) proper training in risk assessment, and how to handle oneself, could have prevented the shooting .


It's just really unfortunate, and all the armchair quarterbacking at this point is not going to bring the young man back.

I would hope that it would result in some changes to procedure and how campus security forces go about protecting the student body, which is their first responsibility.

-TheShadow-

You really haven't researched this at all.

The University of Texas System Police Academy has been around since 1967, and I'm quite positive they aren't the only ones. So try 45 years.

Additionally, training for a Taser isn't just taking someone out and being all "Hey, point that thing around and try shooting it." You have to take classes, and you have to be certified, just like you do for pepper spray and baton.

The officer wasn't "responding" to a call. The guy was at the door of the station, banging on it and yelling.

For reasons thus far unknown, the officer did not have his pepper spray or baton on him. Maybe they were out at the cleaners. No idea.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

This a theme, do not scare an American or they will shoot. Americans cannot take a slap or handle themselves in any form of confrontation and go straight to lethal force.

To be fair, don't paint us all with the same brush.

 

[TheShadow]

Look, I'd like to clarify something...

I'm not presuming to know what the officer involved felt as far as fear or "threat level. For me to do so would be kind of asinine, as I've never been a LEO, nor had my life threatened "directly". But there is evidence, at least to me, that he entered into the altercation expecting severe trouble, as evidenced by him having his gun already drawn.

I think what Nessie and a few other's are trying to stress, is that there seems to be a shift as of the last few recent years here in the States, as far as how peace officers approach these situations.

I am honest enough to admit that part of that is the result of cops having been gunned down, and putting myself in the same dangerous situations daily, I also freely admit that when it came to preserving my own life, I'd probably be more likely to follow a path of action that would give the best chances for my being able to go home safely that day/night.
That being said, there does seem to have been quite a few shootings over the last couple/few years, where police officers have used excessive deadly force, where non lethal means could have gotten the job done.

What we're talking about in this case, is a college campus. There is no "down time", its 24/7 and the only times when the campus isnt bustling with acitivity is when the students are on holiday.

Its not "compton" or whatever other rough ghetto, gang ridden neighborhood you'd like to insert.

A college campus requires a different level of security, than a dangerous gang ridden neighborhood.
They know kids will party. They know kids will get drunk. They know there is at least some hard drug use.

Knowing all those things, would clearly call for at least some non-lethal options to dealing with unruly students...

There should be special training. There's simply no excuse for there not being any...!

Please dont try to suggest to me that a well established, and successful university cannot afford proper training to make sure their peace officers dont use excessive force.


In the end it comes down to how people handle themselves on an individual basis, but having the proper training, and all the necessary tools can have a huge impact on how that individual makes choices.


I was kind of surprised to learn that the young man who was shot was rather small, and not very heavy- being 5'7 and roughly 140lbs or so.

Taking that into consideration, even with my own limited experience in fighting or self defense, I'm fairly confident that I could subdue a naked 140lb kid, without shooting him in the chest. The fact that he was on drugs comes into play, but did the officer know that in advance ? Extremely doubtful.

I completely disagree that it was appropriate for the officer to walk out into the situation with his gun already drawn, not knowing what he was dealing with, and not being able to clearly (if at all) assess what kind of threat the young man was.

Kind of sounds like he was afraid to begin with, and lacked the calm cool confidence exhibited by most police officers I've known, and been around.

If there's video, its questionable whether it will ever be released to the public, so again its hard to ascertain what actually happened, and at this point all we have is the officers account of the incident.

It will be interesting to see as time goes by, what information comes out, and what changes it may inspire as far as college level security goes.


-TheShadow-

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

How often have you fired a hand gun?

Couple times. I've fired a rifle more often.

Don't forget these guys do have minimum requirements to keep their skills up at the firing range, so your argument doesn't have much space to go in.

It's my guess, from watching a number of these shootings on video, that it's most likely the cop had the gun out and finger on the trigger and shot more accidentally-than-not. IOW, it wasn't so much a careful clear decision process as a, get the gun out and "crap, it went off" process. It's too bad we don't have a video of this incident.

 

[RemieV]

Couple times. I've fired a rifle more often.

Don't forget these guys do have minimum requirements to keep their skills up at the firing range, so your argument doesn't have much space to go in.

It's my guess, from watching a number of these shootings on video, that it's most likely the cop had the gun out and finger on the trigger and shot more accidentally-than-not. IOW, it wasn't so much a careful clear decision process as a, get the gun out and "crap, it went off" process. It's too bad we don't have a video of this incident.

There IS video - and people who are far more qualified to review it already have, and will continue to do so.

I don't know how one gets expertise from "watching a number of videos", but do keep in mind that firing ranges have non-moving targets that have no interest in kicking your ass.

 

[triforcharity]

Very well put. That cop could have left his gun inside the police office as he there was no lethal threat form a naked man and gone out an tackled him with pepper spray, baton and cuffs and accepted he might get injured as his job can get physical at times. But no, the cop here chose to hide behind his guns thinking he is a tough guy, but really he is a coward.

You've never dealt with anyone high on PCP or similar, have you? They've got INCREDIBLE strength, and don't respond to pain. Should the cop have risked his life by not having his sidearm with him?

Your last comment is absurd, and a foolish opinion.

 

[triforcharity]

I think anyone who fears a naked man who may have been high on drugs should not be in the police. He got too scared too easily.

So, you've never seen a guy high on PCP have you?

In Scotland two terrorists who had let off a bomb were tackled by a number of unarmed people, civilians, an off duty police officer and then some on duty ones. Indeed one punched one of the terrorists who was on fire at the time.

Cool story, but it matters none. I've hilited why.

 

[Segnosaur]

A college campus requires a different level of security, than a dangerous gang ridden neighborhood.
They know kids will party. They know kids will get drunk. They know there is at least some hard drug use.

Keep in mind that while students may more or less be there to 'party', that the university itself is not necessarily an island to itself. Assaults do occur. Perhaps not with the frequency of a gang-ridden neighborhood but they do happen.

I was kind of surprised to learn that the young man who was shot was rather small, and not very heavy- being 5'7 and roughly 140lbs or so.

Taking that into consideration, even with my own limited experience in fighting or self defense, I'm fairly confident that I could subdue a naked 140lb kid, without shooting him in the chest.

Keep in mind that this "140 lb kid" was also an amateur wrestler, and as such was probably in pretty good shape. Unless you're similarly skilled, there's a pretty good chance that even that "smaller" guy would probably wipe the floor with you.

The fact that he was on drugs comes into play, but did the officer know that in advance ? Extremely doubtful.

Well, him being naked and not following orders is probably a good indicator. If it were a prank on the part of the student ("Hey, lets freak out the police by attacking them naked") you'd expect them to at least listen to the officer's commands.

But here's the question... why does it matter? Even if the guy was stone cold sober he still charged the officer, and the officer would have been right to defend himself with the gun. The officer can only react to what he's presented.

I completely disagree that it was appropriate for the officer to walk out into the situation with his gun already drawn, not knowing what he was dealing with, and not being able to clearly (if at all) assess what kind of threat the young man was.

So, he doesn't know what he's dealing with, so you think the appropriate action is to go assuming the least amount of danger?

If there's video, its questionable whether it will ever be released to the public, so again its hard to ascertain what actually happened, and at this point all we have is the officers account of the incident.

There was a video. It has been reviewed by investigating officers (not connected with the university I believe) who have said that shooting in this case was justified. I believe the family will have the opportunity to view it too, although it probably won't be released for general viewing.

 

[triforcharity]

It is not a jab and you have confirmed what I thought. Scaring an American is enough to get yourself killed.

I have asked this before but got no reply. How would you feel if an American was shot dead because he gave a Scotsman a fright and Scots law took no action?

If it was a justified shooting, within the laws of Scotland, it would matter none.

It's when it falls outside of the law when it becomes a problem.

But, it matters none really. Based on the current facts we have, and the ongoing investigation, we know that the shooting was, (at least at this point) justified.

 

[Andy_Ross]

A cop shoots a wheelchair bound double amputee armed with a pen, "Another officer opened fire, saying was forced to take action, "fearing for his partner's safety and his own safety", after the man refused to calm down and remain still, police told"

http://rt.com/usa/news/houston-police-shoot-amputee-786/

Have a pen, will not calm down, excuse to kill.

Highly trained British Firearms Unit shoots an unarmed naked man in his own bed in his own flat because they felt threatened.

Naked in bed, ecuse to kill.