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2012 Debates

No.

In response to a claim that Romney was doing so well that he'd gain the lead in the polls.


The struggling seems to be from Obama's stammering, not from the content.



In response to a claim that Lehrer was interrupting Romney every 10 seconds & was trying to take over the debate for Obama.

Same as above.

The struggling seems to be from Obama's stammering, not from the content.



The rest I'll give you* except for...

He's even clarified that he was talking about a KO, not a win.



*Here I'm going to point out that all but one came from the same poster & MM wasn't talking to himself for 10 pages.

That's hardly "Pretty much any comment posted in this thread during and immediately after the debate."

True, I'm not interested in splitting hairs, nevertheless I partially disagree with your characterization of those comments above. In general those comments come across as denial and appeals to ignorance.
 
True, I'm not interested in splitting hairs, nevertheless I partially disagree with your characterization of those comments above. In general those comments come across as denial and appeals to ignorance.

No.
 
I mentioned this in my last comment.
I don't know what that means. At the end of the day a peson could reasonably think Obama won. There is no objective evidence to prove that person wrong.

Also, my criticism is specifically about the confirmation bias I saw in this thread.
There is confirmation bias on both sides. However, many if not most concede that the consensus is that Obama lost. I've conceded that and I know that others have also.

I don't think I'm cherry picking.
There is nothing else it can be. First, I and others did NOT claim that Obama won.

There were plenty of left-leaning individuals on this thread who expressed surprise or disappointment especially this morning. My examples naturally did not include those.
???


Good election cycle?
Yes. Romney has lost nearly every election cycle since he became the presumptive nominee so yes, please to tell us his last good election cycle.

I'm not really a fan of Republicans or conservatives. In fact I tend to side with progressive ideas. I'm equally frustrated by both sides when I see double-standards and confirmation bias, especially in a skeptic discussion forum by self-proclaimed skeptics.
That's all well and good but doesn't address my question. This is a single plus for Romney. He lost debates in the primary. It's a marathon not a sprint.
 
I don't know what that means. At the end of the day a peson could reasonably think Obama won. There is no objective evidence to prove that person wrong.

If you want to take the naïve view that nothing is true and nothing can be proven, go right ahead. But I'm interested, how would a reasonable person make the case that Obama won the debate? What criteria would you use? I'm not saying that it's not possible, just that it might not fit the common consensus of what it means to perform well in a debate.

There is confirmation bias on both sides. However, many if not most concede that the consensus is that Obama lost. I've conceded that and I know that others have also.

OK, that's good. Though why push the idea that this is not true objectively if you agree with it? Why are you trying to have it both ways? It is true that there was flat out denial during the debate, and many of us have reexamined our views. That's a good thing.

There is nothing else it can be. First, I and others did NOT claim that Obama won.

But you (plural) sure implied the opposite during the debate.

I don't understand your question.

Yes. Romney has lost nearly every election cycle since he became the presumptive nominee so yes, please to tell us his last good election cycle.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. As I recall, you were trying to associate me with your ideological opposition as if I was lucky that Romney did well this time around. Why?

That's all well and good but doesn't address my question. This is a single plus for Romney. He lost debates in the primary. It's a marathon not a sprint.

I still don't know what your question is.
 
I think that Romney watched 8 mile during debate prep. The way he disarmed O made me think of eminem throwing out all the things that the opponent was going to use against him and took away O's perceived advantage and took him out early. Not exactly, you shagged my girl and my mom lives in a trailer park, but effectively making the salient point that "life is dynamic". Romney can describe his plans as anything he wants. Its gonna happen in the future. O has to deal with the past and whats already been done )FUBAR(
 
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If you want to take the naïve view that nothing is true and nothing can be proven, go right ahead. But I'm interested, how would a reasonable person make the case that Obama won the debate? What criteria would you use? I'm not saying that it's not possible, just that it might not fit the common consensus of what it means to perform well in a debate.

That's really the key: what is the relevant metric here? This isn't the Oxford debate club. These debates have one purpose for the candidates, and one purpose only: to help get them elected. At the end of the day, that's what matters. And that CAN be evaluated objectively. In fact, it's already been done. And Romney won. More people not only think he won, more people also say that it made them more likely to vote for him. And that second part is really the key. The debates won't determine the election on their own, but by the metric that matters the most, this isn't a subjective call, it's objective, and it's not a close call either.
 
more people also say that it made them more likely to vote for him. And that second part is really the key.

Link to that poll? I want to check out the sample group. It's a curiosity to me. I've yet to see a good representative post debate sample.
 
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That's really the key: what is the relevant metric here? This isn't the Oxford debate club. These debates have one purpose for the candidates, and one purpose only: to help get them elected. At the end of the day, that's what matters. And that CAN be evaluated objectively. In fact, it's already been done. And Romney won. More people not only think he won, more people also say that it made them more likely to vote for him. And that second part is really the key. The debates won't determine the election on their own, but by the metric that matters the most, this isn't a subjective call, it's objective, and it's not a close call either.

I would agree that to the extent there can be an objective determination of who won then it was Romney. Why? Because (almost) everyone says he did. And yes, that means he won, especially given that those who would otherwise be Obama fans or supporters also agreed that he won. Those more inclined to agree with Romney certainly thought he won. There essentially is no sensible way in which Obama won the debate.

On the other hand, it doesn't mean Obama can't use what Romney said at the debate to his advantage. It seems he is already doing that. But the debate itself? Romney won.
 
If you want to take the naïve view that nothing is true and nothing can be proven, go right ahead. But I'm interested, how would a reasonable person make the case that Obama won the debate? What criteria would you use? I'm not saying that it's not possible, just that it might not fit the common consensus of what it means to perform well in a debate.
No I'm not taking any naive view. I'm simply pointing out that at the end of the day, who won or lost is an opinion, it's not an objective fact who won or lost and how good Obama did is debatable. Reasonable people can disagree.

OK, that's good. Though why push the idea that this is not true objectively if you agree with it?
Because it's NOT an objective fact. End of story. Who won is debatable. To state otherwise is to fail to be skeptical and critical (or to understand the difference between the objective and the subjective).

Why are you trying to have it both ways? It is true that there was flat out denial during the debate, and many of us have reexamined our views. That's a good thing.
I'm only being honest. Nothing less. Nothing more. I'm happy to A.) accept the consensus and stipulate that Obama lost to avoid a pitched pissing contest. B.) But I would not accuse anyone who disagreed with the conclusion that Obama lost with being either unreasonable or dishonest. Reasonable people can disagree.

I don't understand your question.
I misspoke so fault is mine.

  • There is something called the news cycle.
  • For a candidate a news cycle is like a round in boxing.
  • Each news cycle that a candidate wins is like a point in his or her favor.
  • Elections are not won or lost on a single news cycle.
  • Because of Romney's unforced errors (gaffes) he has lost nearly every single news cycle.
  • A debate is likely to be the prime factor of the news cycle.
  • Romney won this news cycle. It's one of his rare wins.
 
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I would think it should be easy to debate a person like that. Demonstrate their contradictions and hypocrisy and ask, rhetorically, what their "position du jour" is and how the electorate can expect any consistency from him.

Seriously, from what's been said here for the last year or so, Romney should have plenty of weak spots for a skilled debator to exploit.

No excuses for Obama if he didn't do his homework and lost the debate.
I wager that the President was counseled NOT to be snarky, NOT to try to crack wise, NOT to do any name-calling. Not only are such tactics arguably un-presidential (an argument with which I do not necessarily agree; Truman's character was such that he could do all three with ease and to good effect), they aren't Obama. Also, they are risky things to do in a debate.

There were certain things that Romney said that actually snookered me, and they may have snookered the President as well. One remark by Romney was, I submit, designed to mislead the voters:
MR. OBAMA: If they had a pre-existing condition, they might not be able to get coverage at all. ... [There's] no indication [in Governor Romney's proposals] that that somehow is going to help somebody who's got a pre-existing condition be able to finally buy insurance.
...
MR. ROMNEY: Well, actually it's -- it's -- it's a lengthy description. But, number one, pre-existing conditions are covered under my plan.
Whoa! Romney was doing another about-face? He was deciding to agree with the President? This seemed to be exactly the impression that Romney was trying to get across, and it was a blatantly false impression. The President said that people with pre-existing conditions wouldn't be able to buy insurance, and Romney disagreed.

But in fact, the President pegged it pretty much right. He would have been within his rights to refer to Romney as misleading, if not lying outright, but he actually was more diplomatic:
MR. OBAMA: But let's go back to what Governor Romney indicated, that under his plan, he would be able to cover people with pre-existing conditions. Well, actually Governor, that isn't what your plan does. What your plan does is to duplicate what's already the law, which says if you are out of health insurance for three months, then you can end up getting continuous coverage and an insurance company can't deny you if you've -- if it's been under 90 days. But that's already the law and that doesn't help the millions of people out there with pre-existing conditions.

The President had to leave open the door the possibility that Romney was NOT lying, that his position du jour was actually in harmony with the President's. Given the opportunity to clear the matter up, Romney said:
And with regards to health care, you had remarkable details with regards to my pre-existing condition plan. You obviously studied up on -- on my plan. In fact, I do have a plan that deals with people with pre-existing conditions. That's part of my health care plan. And what we did in Massachusetts is a model for the nation state by state. And I said that at that time.
In other words, Romney seemed to be deliberately trying to create the impression that the President had it wrong, and that "in fact" Romney's plan dealt with the problem that the President identified.

It didn't.

I wasn't the only one who got snookered. Romney's camp was pressed after the debate to clarify his current position, and the official answer from the Romney camp is that Romney is NOT on the side of people with pre-exisiting conditions. The President pegged it EXACTLY right.

The President was too gracious not to call Romney a lying son of a bitch.
 
Did Mitt cheat!?



ETA: Never mind. Beat to the punch.
 
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