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2012 Debates

I watched enough of the "debate" to become physically ill. Obama was predictable. Romney was not.

Romney's positions shift like the sand in a strong wind, and Obama could not predict what Romney's "position du jour" would be, especially since there seems to be no concerns on Romney's part about consistency or hypocrisy. How can one prepare for a debate against a man who changes his views as often as he changes his socks?

The impression I got was that Obama was irritated. Here, a month before the election, he has to face a man who disregards much of what he'd said over the past year, and there was no way to guess what was going to come out of Romney's pie-hole. Romney talking about maintaining regulations that he'd previously bad-mouthed, about pushing for health care reform that he was previously for-then-against-then-for-then-against, boasting that he'd protect the middle class for whom he'd previously addressed with insult and disdain.

THIS is "acting presidential?"
 
I'd be a little irritated too if my opponent suddenly said he wasn't for tax breaks for wealthy individuals, or that he's not for getting rid of more teachers when previous comments have demonstrated his position is the opposite.

I also think it's silly at this point to consider intellectual integrity in debates (which are a rather stupid way of exchanging ideas btw) when "scoring points" and being confident in your arguments are considered when saying who "won" (another stupid idea)

Which is why I think Obama "lost" in some peoples mind.
 
President Obama prepped for the debate in Las Vegas. I think what happened in Vegas stayed in Vegas. He did not looked prepared.
 
Cain said:
I didn't watch a minute of the debate, but I've read most of this thread, and quite a few headlines. Verdict: Romney won.

I'm still surprised how people are surprised to learn Obama stammers and ums. This plagues some otherwise hyper-articulate people, such as screenwriter Aaron Sorkin. From his pen pours marvelous monologues but in interviews he's all uhs. And he has an annoying voice. Anyway, I'd almost welcome a Romney victory just to see the reaction on these boards.
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I stammer. I used to be very bad but I trained myself not to with a tape recorder when I was ten. Back then speech therapy was only for people who could not make themselves understood, and I wasn't that bad, so I did it for myself.
 
I think it was Colorado undecided voters because the debate took place in Denver, Colorado.

Brown said:
Romney's positions shift like the sand in a strong wind, and Obama could not predict what Romney's "position du jour" would be, especially since there seems to be no concerns on Romney's part about consistency or hypocrisy. How can one prepare for a debate against a man who changes his views as often as he changes his socks?
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I watched the whole thing on PBS, and of all the commentary I've seen, this resonates the most with what I saw.
 
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SkepticalDrew said:
I'd be a little irritated too if my opponent suddenly said he wasn't for tax breaks for wealthy individuals, or that he's not for getting rid of more teachers when previous comments have demonstrated his position is the opposite.
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Evidence?
 
First bit. Trying to find an exact source for the tax cuts but I'm sure it's out there.

"On Friday, Romney spoke out against Obama's plan to hire more government workers.

He says we need more firemen, more policemen, more teachers. Did he not get the message of Wisconsin? The American people did. It's time for us to cut back on government and help the American people."

http://gawker.com/5917232/romney-proclaims-the-message-of-wisconsin-but-scott-walker-disagrees
 
I refused to watch it, but I wanted to do a morning-after meta analysis. So I went to CNN.com first before Fox. This I was not expecting.
 
Second bit.

"When one of his challengers, Rick Santorum, charged at a debate in Arizona that Mr. Romney might raise taxes on the wealthy, Mr. Romney countered, “We’re going to cut taxes on everyone across the country by 20 percent, including the top 1 percent.” Another rival, Newt Gingrich, praised Mr. Romney’s tax plan at the debate as “closer to supply side.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/29/u...g-to-wider-audience-recalibrates-message.html

Shame that raising taxes on the wealthy is an insult in the GOP primary slugfest.

edit: but I guess this is Romney's, what, fifth time "re-inventing" his image? :confused:
 
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Anybody else wake up this morning in a terrific mood? Man I feel great. Felt like Ryan tucked me in and gave me a glass of warm milk, then Romney read me a bedtime story. The story? "How to make Obama look like a stuttering cluster-****", by Mitt Romney.

Democrats aren't feeling too good. What's one way to tell? On the way to work, all NPR wanted to talk about was Cabrera winning the triple crown. Painful stuff. But I suppose that's how you take your mind off of the image of your hero bringing a spork to a gun fight.

I found a picture of the "greatest orator since Lincoln, nay, Cicero" a short time after running into the Romney buzzsaw:

boxing-5.jpg
 
mikedenk said:
Anybody else wake up this morning in a terrific mood? Man I feel great. Felt like Ryan tucked me in and gave me a glass of warm milk, then Romney read me a bedtime story. The story? "How to make Obama look like a stuttering cluster-****", by Mitt Romney.

Democrats aren't feeling too good. What's one way to tell? On the way to work, all NPR wanted to talk about was Cabrera winning the triple crown. Painful stuff. But I suppose that's how you take your mind off of the image of your hero bringing a spork to a gun fight.

I found a picture of the "greatest orator since Lincoln, nay, Cicero" a short time after running into the Romney buzzsaw:

View attachment 26675
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I hope you will be able to stretch that great feeling out over the next four years, as your candidate finally wins a battle but still looks to lose the war.
 
mikedenk said:
Anybody else wake up this morning in a terrific mood? Man I feel great. Felt like Ryan tucked me in and gave me a glass of warm milk, then Romney read me a bedtime story. The story? "How to make Obama look like a stuttering cluster-****", by Mitt Romney.

Democrats aren't feeling too good. What's one way to tell? On the way to work, all NPR wanted to talk about was Cabrera winning the triple crown. Painful stuff. But I suppose that's how you take your mind off of the image of your hero bringing a spork to a gun fight.

I found a picture of the "greatest orator since Lincoln, nay, Cicero" a short time after running into the Romney buzzsaw:
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Seriously, you gotta stop making it so over-the-top, everyone can tell these are Poe at this point :D
 
I'm afraid that if Obama lost the debate then there's no point spinning it that it doesn't matter.

I wanted Obama to win but it seems from what I have heard that he didn't.
 
Disclosure: 100% pro-Obama in this race.

Romney won. He did so by realizing his base is locked up so he could look all Centrist and Compromising and what-not. A moderate, which is what a lot of Massachusetts pundits say he is at heart and where he is most comfortable. I don't see his disgusting views as Moderate in the slightest, but that is how the media plays it - anyone who even mentions "reaching across the aisle" is considered a moderate.

For me the telling moment was the softball question that Lehrer threw about how they would define the role of government. This is a tailor-made chip shot for Obama to launch into his platitudes that defined him in the first Democratic Convention speech from Gore days - that there are no red states or blue states but a United States, or about coming together in times of challenge, or about America is the land of opportunity, you know, all of that political speechifying BS that he is so good at. Instead he got all policy-wonky and defensive and buried in the numbers. Anyone watching who didn't know what Race To The Top is was lost. But Romney recognized the question for what it was - a chance to give his stump speech. It was well-rehearsed and well-delivered. For those watching who hadn't heard it before it gave them a chance to see him as a dude with Faith and with "the vision thing." Of COURSE there were no specifics but nobody was listening for that, were they? If you care about specifics you would have been paying attention all along.

Obama really should have forced Romney into disavowing the Ryan Budget before the VP debate next week. He failed big by letting it pass.

Since this was the Domestic Policy debate I really expected some controversial questions about the big social issues that would have given us a chance to see them bare their teeth - like gays, guns, abortion, etc. When do we get to see that part?

Hey, how about that Miguel Cabrera :o
 
Question on taboo topics

Does the Commission on Presidential Debates have a list of topics not to be introduced into the debates? Jim Lehrer's poor moderating job suggests this question. The commission's web site doesn't offer such a list, but on another forum a few days ago a contributor listed some such topics, which I neglected to copy.
 
jhunter1163 said:
FactCheck weighs in;

http://m.factcheck.org/2012/10/dubious-denver-debate-declarations/
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It's not a surprise that there are some facts out of line on both sides, but it does seem like Romney was a little more loose with his points.

Romney sometimes came off as a serial exaggerator. He said “up to” 20 million might lose health insurance under the new law, citing a Congressional Budget Office study that actually put the likely number who would lose employer-sponsored coverage at between 3 million and 5 million. He said 23 million Americans are “out of work” when the actual number of jobless is much lower. He claimed half of all college grads this year can’t find work, when, in fact, an AP story said half either were jobless or underemployed. And he again said Obama “cut” $716 billion from Medicare, a figure that actually reflects a 10-year target for slowing Medicare spending, which will continue to grow.
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Thanks for the link, jhunter1163. That was most helpful, seeing as how I only heard the first half hour of the debate (had to work my second job and couldn't catch the rest of the debate.)

Michael
 
rustypouch said:
So how can tax cuts not add to the deficit?

Or do I just not understand how taxes and government spending work?
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The increased growth in jobs and GDP could more than offset the cuts. The only decent point from O during the hour and a half was which loophole-deduction changes can offset the back-of-the-envelope-rates-cut $5trillion.

I can think of one possibility that doesn't touch middle class: AMT revised and given teeth for joint filers over $250,000, single $175,000 +-.
 
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