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Vaccine/autism CT discussion

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Primum Non Nocere

dafydd said:
The proviso was no crackpot websites. Are there any peer reviewed studies of this?

Here is another serious new story from that site

''Hong Kong tycoon Cecil Chao offers $65M to wed lesbian daughter''
Click to expand...

From: Indian Journal of Medical Ethics

"Data from India on polio control over 10 years, available from the National Polio Surveillance Project, has now been compiled and made available online for it to be scrutinised by epidemiologists and statisticians (29)...."

"This shows that the non-polio AFP rate increases in proportion to the number of polio vaccine doses received in each area. Nationally, the non-polio AFP rate is now 12 times higher than expected."

"De Maeseneer and colleagues suggest that vertical programmes have unwittingly increased the incidence of other diseases and broken the first rule of medicine – primum non nocere – first do no harm. They cite the example of HIV and hepatitis caused by WHO-endorsed immunisation programmes against other diseases (40). With polio eradication there was a huge increase in non-polio AFP, in direct proportion to the number of doses of the vaccine used."


http://www.issuesinmedicalethics.org/202co114.html
 
Redtail said:
I know of no such link. Can you provide it?
Click to expand...


"Preliminary data have identified the presence of ASD in the Amish community at a rate of approximately 1 in 271 children using standard ASD screening and diagnostic tools although some modifications may be in order. Further studies are underway to address the cultural norms and customs that may be playing a role in the reporting style of caregivers, as observed by the ADI. Accurate determination of the ASD phenotype in the Amish is a first step in the design of genetic studies of ASD in this population."

"The question of autism amongst the Amish has been studied and is being presented at the IMFAR autism conference this week. The paper, Prevalence Rates of Autism Spectrum Disorders Among the Old Order Amish, demonstrates a preliminary prevalence of 1 in 271 as the prevalence of autism amongst Amish children in two Amish communities: Holmes County, Ohio and Elkhart-Lagrange County, Indiana."

J. L. Robinson , Hussman Institute for Human Genomics, University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, Miami, FL
L. Nations , Hussman Institute for Human Genomics, University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, Miami, FL
N. Suslowitz , Center for Human Genetics Research, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN
M. L. Cuccaro , Human Genetics, University of Miami School of Medicine, Miami, FL
J. Haines , Center for Human Genetics Research, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN
M. Pericak-Vance , Hussman Institute for Human Genomics, University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, Miami, FL


"The latest report from the Center for Disease Control estimates the rate of ASD is 1 in 91 children (Kogan, 2009), "


http://www.opposingviews.com/i/myth-amish-don-t-have-autism

Thus, it's one in 271 for the non-vaccinated Amish, one in 91 for those vaccinated. The "link" is only in the correlation.
 
Robert Prey said:
Thus, it's one in 271 for the non-vaccinated Amish, one in 91 for those vaccinated. The "link" is only in the correlation.
Click to expand...
Correlation does not imply causation.

You could just as easily argue parents with beards prevent nearly 2/3 of ASD.
 
Robert Prey said:
Thus, it's one in 271 for the non-vaccinated Amish, one in 91 for those vaccinated. The "link" is only in the correlation.
Click to expand...

Yeah... You completely missed my point earlier, failed to entertain alternate reasons why there would be a disparity between one group and the next when it comes to reported incidences of autism, and you link to a questionable news article rather than an actual study.
 
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Robert Prey said:
Stats at that source confirm my post.
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No they don't; a quick look at VDPV will tell you how many cases were confirmed and another quick look at non-polio AFPs will give you another stat. This is rather straight-forward, what is your confusion?

Robert Prey said:
From: Indian Journal of Medical Ethics

"Data from India on polio control over 10 years, available from the National Polio Surveillance Project, has now been compiled and made available online for it to be scrutinised by epidemiologists and statisticians (29)...."

"This shows that the non-polio AFP rate increases in proportion to the number of polio vaccine doses received in each area. Nationally, the non-polio AFP rate is now 12 times higher than expected."

"De Maeseneer and colleagues suggest that vertical programmes have unwittingly increased the incidence of other diseases and broken the first rule of medicine – primum non nocere – first do no harm. They cite the example of HIV and hepatitis caused by WHO-endorsed immunisation programmes against other diseases (40). With polio eradication there was a huge increase in non-polio AFP, in direct proportion to the number of doses of the vaccine used."


http://www.issuesinmedicalethics.org/202co114.html
Click to expand...

Re: the bolded portion is positively batpoo insane. Would you care to provide a credible source?

Robert Prey said:
"Preliminary data have identified the presence of ASD in the Amish community at a rate of approximately 1 in 271 children using standard ASD screening and diagnostic tools although some modifications may be in order. Further studies are underway to address the cultural norms and customs that may be playing a role in the reporting style of caregivers, as observed by the ADI. Accurate determination of the ASD phenotype in the Amish is a first step in the design of genetic studies of ASD in this population."

"The question of autism amongst the Amish has been studied and is being presented at the IMFAR autism conference this week. The paper, Prevalence Rates of Autism Spectrum Disorders Among the Old Order Amish, demonstrates a preliminary prevalence of 1 in 271 as the prevalence of autism amongst Amish children in two Amish communities: Holmes County, Ohio and Elkhart-Lagrange County, Indiana."

J. L. Robinson , Hussman Institute for Human Genomics, University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, Miami, FL
L. Nations , Hussman Institute for Human Genomics, University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, Miami, FL
N. Suslowitz , Center for Human Genetics Research, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN
M. L. Cuccaro , Human Genetics, University of Miami School of Medicine, Miami, FL
J. Haines , Center for Human Genetics Research, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN
M. Pericak-Vance , Hussman Institute for Human Genomics, University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, Miami, FL


"The latest report from the Center for Disease Control estimates the rate of ASD is 1 in 91 children (Kogan, 2009), "


http://www.opposingviews.com/i/myth-amish-don-t-have-autism

Thus, it's one in 271 for the non-vaccinated Amish, one in 91 for those vaccinated. The "link" is only in the correlation.
Click to expand...

Pssst, the Amish vaccinate and this report does not provide vaccine status. Furthermore, the Amish have genetic neurological disorders not found in hetergenous populations. You have provided nothing to support your claim that autism is found less in unvaccinated cohorts.

Este
 
Gosh, and all the Amish need to do to get their autism rate down was hideously inbreed for a century and deal with hordes of genetic defects as a result!
 
Robert Prey said:
Stats at that source confirm my post.
Click to expand...

Which ones? Why did you use a second-order "source", then?

Robert Prey said:
...
Thus, it's one in 271 for the non-vaccinated Amish, one in 91 for those vaccinated. The "link" is only in the correlation.
Click to expand...

You mean people without regular access to advanced medical care have a lower reported rate of diagnoses? Even the report says they don't know what's causing it. And as Estella pointed out, the Amish vax.
 
Robert Prey said:
"Preliminary data have identified the presence of ASD in the Amish community at a rate of approximately 1 in 271 children using standard ASD screening and diagnostic tools although some modifications may be in order. Further studies are underway to address the cultural norms and customs that may be playing a role in the reporting style of caregivers, as observed by the ADI. Accurate determination of the ASD phenotype in the Amish is a first step in the design of genetic studies of ASD in this population."

"The question of autism amongst the Amish has been studied and is being presented at the IMFAR autism conference this week. The paper, Prevalence Rates of Autism Spectrum Disorders Among the Old Order Amish, demonstrates a preliminary prevalence of 1 in 271 as the prevalence of autism amongst Amish children in two Amish communities: Holmes County, Ohio and Elkhart-Lagrange County, Indiana."

J. L. Robinson , Hussman Institute for Human Genomics, University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, Miami, FL
L. Nations , Hussman Institute for Human Genomics, University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, Miami, FL
N. Suslowitz , Center for Human Genetics Research, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN
M. L. Cuccaro , Human Genetics, University of Miami School of Medicine, Miami, FL
J. Haines , Center for Human Genetics Research, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN
M. Pericak-Vance , Hussman Institute for Human Genomics, University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, Miami, FL


"The latest report from the Center for Disease Control estimates the rate of ASD is 1 in 91 children (Kogan, 2009), "


http://www.opposingviews.com/i/myth-amish-don-t-have-autism

Thus, it's one in 271 for the non-vaccinated Amish, one in 91 for those vaccinated. The "link" is only in the correlation.
Click to expand...

How do you know the Amish don't vaccinate? I know that the Amish near Chautauqua did.

Eta: Already taken care of I see.
 
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So Robert, your bringing up of the Amish is a particularily epic fail. Not only have you failed to find out if the Amish vaccinate, you also failed to take into account that they often marry young and start having children soon afterwards rather than wait until their 30's, as much of the general population does.



Do you wonder why no one takes you seriously?
 
Robert Prey said:
From: Indian Journal of Medical Ethics

"Data from India on polio control over 10 years, available from the National Polio Surveillance Project, has now been compiled and made available online for it to be scrutinised by epidemiologists and statisticians (29)...."

"This shows that the non-polio AFP rate increases in proportion to the number of polio vaccine doses received in each area. Nationally, the non-polio AFP rate is now 12 times higher than expected."

"De Maeseneer and colleagues suggest that vertical programmes have unwittingly increased the incidence of other diseases and broken the first rule of medicine – primum non nocere – first do no harm. They cite the example of HIV and hepatitis caused by WHO-endorsed immunisation programmes against other diseases (40). With polio eradication there was a huge increase in non-polio AFP, in direct proportion to the number of doses of the vaccine used."


http://www.issuesinmedicalethics.org/202co114.html
Click to expand...

I must have missed how this would be relevant in a discussion of whether or not the polio vaccine has reduced the incidence of POLIO.
 
I'm a little skeptical about the Indian Journal of Medical Ethics. They have a website, but all email correspondence is through gmail. :confused:
 
Robert Prey said:
Correlation certainly does imply a possible causation.
Click to expand...

That's a negative in regards to the Amish community.

You do know who they are?

You realise that many of the communities are not welcoming to the 'English' coming in and doing things, and even those that do have interaction tend to hide/ cover some of their brethren?

The figures aren't that accurate, and may be worse.

The Amish were brought into this discussion because Clayton Moore put forward the theory that only vaccinated kids get autism.

I take it you're not of that belief.
 
jaydeehess said:
I must have missed how this would be relevant in a discussion of whether or not the polio vaccine has reduced the incidence of POLIO.
Click to expand...

No. You missed the entire point of the discussion which is when considering whether to vaccinate, is it wise or unwise to think twice.
 
Robert Prey said:
Correlation certainly does imply a possible causation.
Click to expand...
No it doesn't. You could draw correlations between just about any outcomes and variables. Besides, you dishonestly used a presentation abstract as your proof that unvaccinated have less autism than vaccinated that didn't even probe for vaccine status and as though you would think we would take your word that they don't vaccinate.

When you stick to the evidence you don't look like a liar and a fool. It's a lot less tiring than the mental gymnastics you have to do to pound your "facts" to jive with your pre-conceived beliefs.

Este
 
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