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Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

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Robert,

Those who do not learn from history:


I didn't, but Snopes did.

eta: I know you aren't a fan of actually looking at the evidence provided, so I'll cut to the chase. Here is the original of that Photoshop job you posted:
[qimg]http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/kenyasign2.jpg[/qimg]

are doomed to repeat it:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=808&pictureid=6632[/qimg]

I see. Your hypothesis is based on blithely accepting whatever false information that pops into your inbox that supports your bias.

[qimg]http://www.wnd.com/images/welcometomadhasign400.jpg[/qimg]

The real sign.

It wasn't a real sign then. It isn't a real sign now. You are being intellectually dishonest.
 
Not necessarily, but parsing, perhaps. Hawaii officials can swear the information is correct till they're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean the COLB copy is really a copy of an original Birth Certificate.

Exactly, that's exactly what it means.

There is a Court of Law and then there is a Court of Public Opinion.

And which is relevant to this discussion? Hint: It's the court of law.

A court does have the power to keep a candidate off of the ballot. Obviously. And that would in effect depose a sitting president.

Evidence for this claim if you'd be so kind.
 
But it does not take a genius to notice objects in a layer, zoom in on them, and discover that what is revealed is not the opaque as with other objects, but the background layer of the document. Anyone could have done this and pointed it out. A child could have done it. But Harrision actually did it. Does not make him a forensic genius. Just a guy who proved the COLB to be a fraud he doesn't know anything about how PDFs are created and optimized.
Fixed that for you.

The appropriate people in Hawaii have said that all the information on the PDF posted by the White House is in fact correct. It doesn't matter if the PDF was created bit by bit by flipping coins onto a graphics tablet, the information is correct and matches the original paper form bound into the Big Book of Hawaiian Birth Certificates (tm).

And once again, the PDF has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the certificate of which it is a copy. That certificate is but one of the PAPER certified copies of the data supplied by Hawaii in response to legal requests. Many people have seen and handled these copies. And nothing you wish or imagine about the PDF has any affect at all on the hard fact that those PAPER copies establish the President's place of birth as Hawaii.
 
Experienced in graphic arts presumes experience in such programs as Illustrator, Photoshop, Indesign and Acrobat among others. But perhaps no experience in PDF Woo, nor scanners with x-ray vision. But it does not take a genius to notice objects in a layer, zoom in on them, and discover that what is revealed is not the opaque as with other objects, but the background layer of the document. Anyone could have done this and pointed it out. A child could have done it. But Harrision actually did it. Does not make him a forensic genius. Just a guy who proved the COLB to be a fraud.

Robert, I AM an expert in Graphic Arts and Graphic Software. I've been working with computer graphics software, scanners, stat cameras... since 1983. I've done extensive photo retouching, morphing and creative work for both Fortune 100 cos and small shops alike.... I've also done forensic work with the State of Ct a number times.

As a well qualified expert in the field, you don't know your ass from your elbow...and your claims are pure ignorance.
 
beyond going into another debate about the irrelevant PDF (which Hawaii has already said that the information found on the PDF at the White House website matches what they have on file, not once but THREE times):


In other news, Orly after her disastrous showing in Mississippi on Monday, happened to do a repeat performance today in Indiana, in a bid to "resurrect" her Ballot challenge case there. As with the Judge in Mississippi, she gets schooled and lectured on proper legal procedures.


On the ground reporting provided by some members of TheFogbow:
http://thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=8329


And how a birther says it happened:
http://obamaballotchallenge.com/ind...ited-as-taitz-looks-forward-to-kansas-hearing
 
Not necessarily, but parsing, perhaps. Hawaii officials can swear the information is correct till they're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean the COLB copy is really a copy of an original Birth Certificate.

Okay, what do you think an "original" BC looks like, and what do you think a "real" copy of one looks like?
 
Fixed that for you.

The appropriate people in Hawaii have said that all the information on the PDF posted by the White House is in fact correct. It doesn't matter if the PDF was created bit by bit by flipping coins onto a graphics tablet, the information is correct and matches the original paper form bound into the Big Book of Hawaiian Birth Certificates (tm).

And once again, the PDF has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the certificate of which it is a copy. That certificate is but one of the PAPER certified copies of the data supplied by Hawaii in response to legal requests. Many people have seen and handled these copies. And nothing you wish or imagine about the PDF has any affect at all on the hard fact that those PAPER copies establish the President's place of birth as Hawaii.

And if the paper copies are not really copies???
 
Robert,

Those who do not learn from history:





are doomed to repeat it:





It wasn't a real sign then. It isn't a real sign now. You are being intellectually dishonest.


Ah, but the information on the sign is correct. Just as anti-birthers argue the information on the COLB is correct. Never mind that it is a forgery.
 
Adobe has thousands of customers, most of whom can't tell you anything about the file formats or underlying mechanisms of the tools they use, and almost none of whom are Birthers. Tom Harrison is one of many thousands of ordinary users of a popular and widely available computer program. It doesn't make him a "computer expert."

On the other hand, training and experience in computer science, including studying and teaching at the school responsible for that product, followed by decades of industry experience, give me and others the insight to point out where your pseudo-experts are making a mistake. So far you have no answer for that explanation other than to demand that we aren't "really" experts, even though the expertise is being demonstrated to your face.



No "woo," just the widely-available but technically challenging facts. You were handed the official Adobe description of the PDF system on a silver platter and asked to reconcile it with Birther assumptions for how PDF imaging should work. You have failed to do so, and you have ignored the summaries of it provided by others.

An expert knowledge of the Portable Document Format is required to evaluate claims pertaining to suspicion over a PDF file's composition. None of your so-called experts has been able to demonstrate such knowledge. Nor have you been able to address our criticism of their findings by any means other than begging everyone to believe that it's nonsense.

Naked denial of the refutation is not an effective rejoinder.



None needed. The Magic Scanner theory is the Birther straw man. I have instead provided several explanations and descriptions now of how PDF optimization typically works. You have willfully ignored it, hence you may not insist that I must believe in magic scanners. I refuse to wear the argument you keep trying to pin on me. When you're ready to discuss the argument I actually made, let us know.



No, he couldn't even get that right. It took me a while to duplicate what he was doing, until I figured out that he was toggling the clipping mask within the object and not the object itself.

In any case I answered this question at length. Kindly stop simply repeating your non-expert's claim as if it hadn't been debunked. What we see in the PDF is the expected behavior for an optimized PDF, and I have explained at length why. Your Oregon farmer with the made-up credentials and the home car-repair and web-design business has, like all the other Birther pseudo-experts, made the classic common-sense amateur's mistake of assuming the PDF rendering engine works like the more common z-buffer compositing algorithm. Nope, it doesn't.



No, you said:



You play this dishonest game every time one of your pseudo-experts is debunked and deposed. When you first presented his claims, we pointed out that they were technically naive and were just being used by a tabloid to lend an air of authority to their sensationalist claims. "No, no, no," you said. (paraphrasing) "He's an expert and his judgment has to be respected." Now you want again to back away from the expert-witness claim and say that the "evidence" speaks for itself.

No. The evidence you wished at first to present was Tom Harrison's allegedly expert judgment that the only way that PDF could have arisen from a scan is if the scanner somehow had x-ray vision. But the judgment to that effect was based solely upon Harrison's lack of imagination to consider other explanations that a real expert could instantly list. The claim, "I can't imagine how else this could have arisen, therefore fraud" is valid only if the witness's imagination is sufficiently informed.

So now you've tried to move the goalposts. Now you want to say that the evidence is instead the "anomalies" in the PDF that you say are somehow self-evident, require no judgment to interpret, and cannot be refuted. The earlier evidence comprising allegedly expert judgment is simply a recitation of layman's ignorance. Your change of argument suggests you understand this but you do not acknowledge it.

The observations and facts, upon which Harrison's former judgment was made and which you now say are the uncontestable evidence of forgery, have their explanation not in Photoshop layers, as Zebest has claimed, or "x-ray scanners" as Harrison has claimed, but instead in the ordinary and expected behavior of optimized PDFs. You have this explained to you multiple times by me and others, but you deny any obligation to consider it. You have been handed the official Adobe reference manual for the PDF language, but you refuse to read it.

You may trot out as many layman as you wish to attest to "common sense" interpretations that deny the published facts, but it will not convince anyone. You may deny to your heart's content that no expertise is required to understand what goes on in the Portable Document Format, but everyone else can see it being shown otherwise.



No, just yet another guy you've trotted out who patently doesn't know what he's talking about.

To sum up:

You have no legal basis for an accusation of fraud.
You have no factual basis for an accusation of fraud.

What is it that you think you have, that someone who isn't already a Birther would consider compelling evidence?

So, how does a scanner read information that isn't there?
 
So, your theory is that Hawaii has taken a bit from one birth certificate, a bit from another and certified for the courts that "all the information is correct?"

That's one explanation. Another is that the information on file is merely from a Declaration of Birth made by somebody at some unknown time. Remember there is no documentation available about any hospital visit by the mother, and when Gov. Ambercrombie tried to verify that an actual BC existed, all he was shown of a logged entry. He failed to produce an actual BC nor was he shown one.
 
That's one explanation. Another is that the information on file is merely from a Declaration of Birth made by somebody at some unknown time.

This too was addressed long ago. The lawsuit alleging this theory misstated and selectively quoted the relevant law, and was summarily dismissed on those grounds. Declarations, amendments, and alterations are noted in abstracts and copies, by law -- the part of the law the Birthers leave out.

...when Gov. Ambercrombie tried to verify that an actual BC existed, all he was shown of a logged entry. He failed to produce an actual BC nor was he shown one.

Also addressed long ago. Under Hawaii law the governor is not entitled to view the birth certificate because he is not in any of the categories that has standing. When he was informed of this by the registrar he withdrew his request. Birthers forget to tell the part of the story where the governor's request was unlawful. They just tell the part of the story that sounds like the registrar is hiding something.

Why is it that you can never get the whole story from the Birthers? What are they hiding?
 
That's one explanation. Another is that the information on file is merely from a Declaration of Birth made by somebody at some unknown time. Remember there is no documentation available about any hospital visit by the mother, and when Gov. Ambercrombie tried to verify that an actual BC existed, all he was shown of a logged entry. He failed to produce an actual BC nor was he shown one.


Thing is though that Mr. Obama has produced a certified copy of his BC. At this point there are no legal grounds on which any legal challenge can stand.

The court of public opinion is in it for the lols now - if it weren't for the waste of taxpaper resources being expended in answering frivolous and vexatious lawsuits.

As to the trivia of the hospital record of the hospital visit of Mr. Obama's mother there is a perfect record - it's the BC of her son. The other records, being of a transitory nature have likely been purged in routine file clean ups - if we asked you to produce the hospital records for you own mother's hospital stay for your own birth could you?
 
That's one explanation. Another is that the information on file is merely from a Declaration of Birth made by somebody at some unknown time. Remember there is no documentation available about any hospital visit by the mother, and when Gov. Ambercrombie tried to verify that an actual BC existed, all he was shown of a logged entry. He failed to produce an actual BC nor was he shown one.

Neal knew his parents
 
So, how does a scanner read information that isn't there?
You really don't understand how things work do you?

That's one explanation. Another is that the information on file is merely from a Declaration of Birth made by somebody at some unknown time. Remember there is no documentation available about any hospital visit by the mother, and when Gov. Ambercrombie tried to verify that an actual BC existed, all he was shown of a logged entry. He failed to produce an actual BC nor was he shown one.
Yes, that's "one explanation." Another is that space aliens traveled back in time and stole the CLOB.

Just as much evidence for it as your POV.
 
That's one explanation. Another is that the information on file is merely from a Declaration of Birth made by somebody at some unknown time.

Please supply proof of this.

Robert Prey said:
Remember there is no documentation available about any hospital visit by the mother,

There is no documentation because hospital and medical records are confidential. It's the same for you and I. The Kapi'olani Medical Center have stated that they were the birthplace of BHOII.

Even the birthers claim that the birth announcement came from the grandparents is false, as these details came from the hospital. As the Honolulu Advertiser states:

"Such vital statistics, however, were not sent to the newspapers by the general public but by the Health Department, which received the information directly from hospitals, Okubo said. Birth announcements from the public ran elsewhere in both papers and usually included information such as the newborn's name, weight and time of birth."

Robert Prey said:
and when Gov. Ambercrombie tried to verify that an actual BC existed, all he was shown of a logged entry. He failed to produce an actual BC nor was he shown one.

Again, this comes down to the law. The Governor does not have magical powers that trump the state law. He cannot demand to see a document he has no legal reason to see, let alone obtain a copy of.

Why is it birthers have no concept of law?

Can you provide documentation that Stanley Dunham Obama travelled to Kenya to give birth? Do you have port/airport records that document this? Ship/airline manifests perhaps?
 
That's one explanation. Another is that the information on file is merely from a Declaration of Birth made by somebody at some unknown time.

No, that's completely false. Any birth certificate with information from a Declaration of Birth would say so right on the certificate itself, and wouldn't contain things like hospital name and the signature of the attending obstetrician.

Obama's birth certificate is not noted as being from a Declaration of Birth, and bears the hospital name and the signature of the Kapi'olani obstetrician who delivered him, Dr. David Sinclair.

Therefore, your "explanation" is invalid and inapplicable.
 
Birthers seem to have no concept of:

Law
Technology
The US constitution
and reality.
 
Not necessarily, but parsing, perhaps. Hawaii officials can swear the information is correct till they're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean the COLB copy is really a copy of an original Birth Certificate.


You're way off into the realms of non-falsifiability here. If you assume the officials are lying (which would, of course, have to involve a conspiracy going at least as far back as the contemporary publication of the birth notice) then you can say anything.

But you still have no evidence that the officials are lying.
 
The hypothetical example is similar to the official ruling of the disputed interception at Monday's Packers versus Seahawks contest. Everyone in the world knows very well that Greenbay intercepted the pass, but the official ruling says otherwise. It's cognitive dissonance.


Cognitive dissonance doesn't enter into it - my example was of a court saying that it can't decide the laws of mathematics and physics.

Or are you saying that the laws of mathematics and physics can be determined by judicial decision?
 
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