Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

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You don't know enough about radiometric dating to determine what is reasonable or not. You are continuing to ignore what the experts say about reweaving techniques, demonstrating that you're not honest enough to determine what's reasonable or not in that regard. Furthermore, you're not attempting to learn the truth, but rather to support an a priori conclusion, meaning that your entire view of this question is so biased that I simply cannot trust you to determine what counter-arguments (not objections--THIS IS NOT A COURTROOM) are valid.

Don't lump me in with that. My objection to Jabba messing with what I say is that I don't believe Jabba is capable of accurately representing what I say (and that I think he's attempting to manipulate the style of argument to favor his side, whether the facts do or not--something he's admitted to trying before). I've made my reasoning very clear: Jabba demonstrably doesn't know enough about these systems (some of which are quite complex) to accurately paraphrase statements about them. So frankly I wouldn't accept ANY paraphrasing from Jabba.

Again, don't lump me in with that. I'm not offended; I merely don't trust Jabba to accurately represent what I've said (for the reasons I give above).
This appears to me to be the heart of the matter,
1. Do we believe Jabba/Rick is doing this to help facilitate debate?
No. Based on previous conduct Jabba/Rick appears to be doing this to control and limit debate and insulate pro-authenticity arguments from examination.

2. Do we trust Jabba/Rick to transmit material from here accurately?
No. Jabba/Rick has demonstrated dishonesty and bias and has shown himself incapable of understanding the technical material discussed here.
 
This appears to me to be the heart of the matter,
1. Do we believe Jabba/Rick is doing this to help facilitate debate?
No. Based on previous conduct Jabba/Rick appears to be doing this to control and limit debate and insulate pro-authenticity arguments from examination.

I found the comment the other day about how he is looking for data to support his belief that the carbon data is wrong.

Why should that be? Shouldn't the belief that the carbon data is wrong already have some data to support it? If not, why cling to that belief?
 
I found the comment the other day about how he is looking for data to support his belief that the carbon data is wrong.

Why should that be? Shouldn't the belief that the carbon data is wrong already have some data to support it? If not, why cling to that belief?

You're thinking like someone who's interested in the truth. Jabba doesn't appear to be--he appears to be looking for justifications to cling to his belief. It's a whole different mindset.
 
You're thinking like someone who's interested in the truth. Jabba doesn't appear to be--he appears to be looking for justifications to cling to his belief. It's a whole different mindset.

But from my experience, among anybody no matter the belief (or disbelief), it is a well widespread mindset.
 
I've been watching the posts in this thread and have been disappointed about what I thought was the unnecessarily antagonistic posts, but I thought I had said about all that I had to say about that and repeating myself wouldn't serve any purpose.

However, I think Giordano's suggestion goes to what I thought Jabba intended. There seems to be some line between paraphrasing somebody and summarizing their arguments that I don't quite get. Numerous people seem to have taken objection to Jabba's stated intent to paraphrase their arguments on a different site, but Giordana is proposing that Jabba summarize their arguments and post them on a different site. One seems to be OK and the other seems to be something to take offense at. They seem to be quite a similar idea to me.

Regardless, Giordana's approach seems reasonable to me. With respect, Jabba might consider using Catsmate1's summary of the arguments against the authenticity of the shroud as an outline which could be fleshed out with references and details available in this thread. Alternatively, he could look at a few of the shroud skeptic sites for an organized set of arguments against shroud authenticity. I've looked at a few of them and at least one of them had a pretty good organized overview of the arguments against authenticity. I don't know which one that was right now though.

The difficulty is that most or all of the standard arguments against shroud authenticity have been responded to by shroud believers and I am not sure exactly of the value of this exercise. I don't think the shroud believer arguments are valid but I also don't think any discussion is likely to change their minds.

I'm sorry, but if you read my many other posts you would see that I am profoundly against Jabba posting our comments or their paraphrasing elsewhere. I was suggesting Jabba finally take the time to review this thread and at long last provide his rebuttals and new evidence here, on this thread.
 
Carbon Dating/Getting Past the Experts

Jabba,

Feel free to bring the information from Ron (the guy on the other forum) here. Just make sure you get his sources before you do. If you simply quote or paraphrase him, you know the reaction here will be "Says who?".

Ward
Ward,
- In the following, you probably won't need the sources, so please let me know if, and where, you do.
- And by the way -- lately, I haven't been able to use the tool bar in the posting display(?). Would you know why not?
--- Jabba

"Madam Flury-Lemburg had absolutely nothing to do with the sample location choice, two little known textile experts were brought in and it was argued over for two hours where the sample would be taken from (last minute) and not even by the experts. These textile experts, basically, had NO prior experience with the Shroud. Absolutely no prior technical information was actually consulted, as in STURP photographs etc. It ‘seemed’ the choice was made blind. Prof Testore/Riggi cut a much larger sample from the cloth but kept more then half for personal use/study... The event was video taped, but as mentioned, not all of it! Why? is the big question here. Why would you video tape most of the proceedings then go to a seperate room, with only two individuals involved, one being Mr Tite and not tape ‘extremely important’ sample packaging?…the whole thing was problematic.

"As for Ms. Lemburg’s negating the patch theory; Funny how she wasn’t even aware of ‘French-Invisible-Reweaving’ methods, evidenced by her comments that all stitching would show signs on atleast one side or the other? Did she even look at the cloth through any instruments other then her own eyes? The patching or stitching was “independently observed” by atleast three independent sources, thru J.Marino and Sue Bedford’s investigations into the patching theory.

"Just to many unanswered questions, and very questionable dealings occurred during the whole process, if you ask me ;-)"
 
Carbon Dating/Getting Past the Experts

Ward,
- The following is a source I provided a while back, but just in case you missed or forgot it, look up #39 & #43. They talk about invisible re-weaving.
--- Jabba
 
Ward,
- The following is a source I provided a while back, but just in case you missed or forgot it, look up #39 & #43. They talk about invisible re-weaving.
--- Jabba
No link!
 
Ward,
- The following is a source I provided a while back, but just in case you missed or forgot it, look up #39 & #43. They talk about invisible re-weaving.
--- Jabba

Jabba,

I don't why your toolbar is not working properly. I'm the wrong person to ask about that. Someone else here might be able to help, but probably in a different thread on a different sub-foum.

On to the topic at hand:

You really feel that some dude named Ron is a good enough source for all the claims he made in that post? Seriously? I cannot believe that your standards are that low.

And neither posts #39 nor #43 were made by you, however I remember the articles you brought to us about French "invisible" re-weaving. Here's what I remember based on the sources that you brought to us. It is neither invisible nor would it effect the C14 dating since, by definition, it would have used threads taken from other matching parts all over the shroud. If it were an "invisible" re-weave (highly unlikely in the first place), then it would have been the best possible sample of the entire shroud because it would have contained threads from all over the original fabric of the shroud. Either way, the C14 dating does not change.

Ward
 
Here's the link Jabba wasn't able to provide:
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/benfordmarino.pdf

It's a profoundly embarrassing thing to read, of course, but apparently it's the best on the subject the pro-authenticity people have in their arsenal, correct me if I'm wrong.

Why embarrassing?
I won't take the edge off the forum's amusement at the authors' reasoning.
Enjoy.
 
Here's the link Jabba wasn't able to provide:
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/benfordmarino.pdf

It's a profoundly embarrassing thing to read, of course, but apparently it's the best on the subject the pro-authenticity people have in their arsenal, correct me if I'm wrong.

Why embarrassing?
I won't take the edge off the forum's amusement at the authors' reasoning.
Enjoy.


I thought I'd seen as much drivel as it was possible to write about the shroud but apparently, just like scientology, it's always worse than you think.

This snippet from the conclusion does well to explain the fantasyland thinking in which these people engage:

The tragedy of the ill-fated 1988 C-14 dating is, in one respect, the tragic result of an ill-fated love story.

How nauseating, not just in itself, but in terms of its appearance in what purports to be a scientific analysis.
 
- In the following, you probably won't need the sources, so please let me know if, and where, you do.
Everything you say needs support, you've shown yourself to be unreliable.

"Madam Flury-Lemburg had absolutely nothing to do with the sample location choice, two little known textile experts were brought in and it was argued over for two hours where the sample would be taken from (last minute) and not even by the experts.
Firstly your "source" can't even get the name correct; it's Flury-Lemberg.
Secondly the "little known textile experts" (a bit of a contradiction?) were Professor Testore (Department of Materials Science, Turin Polytechnic) and Dr. Vial (Musée des Tissues and Centre International d'Étude des Textiles Anciens at Lyon). Not exactly idiots grabbed from the streets as your "source" seems to want to imply.
Interestingly the change was made by Cardinal Ballestrero, the Archbishop of Turin, acting on advice from Dr. Gonella, who was a believer in the authenticity of the shroud and a member of STURP.

So Jabba/Rick are you back to pathetic conspiracy theories? More attempts to smear those who disprove your beliefs like you tried with McCrone?

These textile experts, basically, had NO prior experience with the Shroud.
Why is this a bad thing?

Absolutely no prior technical information was actually consulted, as in STURP photographs etc.
Give the quality of STURP's work is this a bad thing?

It ‘seemed’ the choice was made blind.
No the location selected was adjacent to the one used in 1973 to remove a sample for examination by STURP. There was extensive prior discussion and consideration.

Prof Testore/Riggi cut a much larger sample from the cloth but kept more then half for personal use/study...
Citation required. The documented (and video recorded) record of the process does not show this. Perhaps (and I'm being charitable) your source is confusing the removing of the backing cloth?

The event was video taped, but as mentioned, not all of it! hy? is the big question here. Why would you video tape most of the proceedings then go to a seperate room, with only two individuals involved, one being Mr Tite and not tape ‘extremely important’ sample packaging?…the whole thing was problematic.
More pathetic conspiratorial ramblings. Actually the answer is quite simple, of your source had bothered to check; the samples were taken into an adjacent room for wrapping (in aluminium foil) and sealing in transport containers by Dr. Tite and Cardinal Ballestrero (the video camera being mounted in the main room). This was part of the blinding process, each laboratory received four samples, one from the shroud and three controls; the laboratories were not told which container held the shroud sample.

"As for Ms. Lemburg’s negating the patch theory; Funny how she wasn’t even aware of ‘French-Invisible-Reweaving’ methods, evidenced by her comments that all stitching would show signs on atleast one side or the other? Did she even look at the cloth through any instruments other then her own eyes? The patching or stitching was “independently observed” by atleast three independent sources, thru J.Marino and Sue Bedford’s investigations into the patching theory.
Again the woman's name is Flury-Lemberg.
I'd like to see your source's evidence for these claimed patches/stitches which seem to have escaped notice by experts and avoided being photographed (yes the sampled are was photographed before being cut) but appear to an ex-Benedictine and a wooster with no skills or experience.
We've dealt with the Marino/Benford nonsense before.

"Just to many unanswered questions, and very questionable dealings occurred during the whole process, if you ask me ;-)"
Worthless personal opinion. If your source had actually bothered to look s/he's have found the answers easily.
But that would require and open mind. :rolleyes:
 
Contamination? Nope.

As part of my on/off efforts to produce a definitive list of points for the shroud's medieval origin I re-read the original documentation of the radiocarbon examination process. This leads me to consider the idea of sample contamination (beloved of the shroudies) is even less likely than I'd previously considered.

Each laboratory (Zürich, Oxford and Arizona) carried out a comprehensive multi-stage cleaning of their sample. Firstly by microscopic examination and removal of gross contaminants, followed by preliminary cleaning using a mix of ultrasonic bathing, vacuum pipetting and/or hot ether soaking.
After this the samples were split and more stringent methods were used.

The Zürich group split each ultrasonically cleaned sample in half; the first set were again split into three parts and sets were subjected to:
1. room temperature 0.5% hydrochloric acid, 0.25% sodium hydroxide and then acid bathing again, with water rinsing in between each course.
2. no further treatment
3. hot (80°C) 5% hydrochloric acid, 2.5% sodium hydroxide and then acid bathing again, with water rinsing in between each course.
The second batch of samples were kept until after the first radiocarbon dating run was completed. As this showed no evidence of contamination, the second set was split into two portions, to which the weak and strong chemical treatments were applied.

The Arizona group split each sample into four subsamples.
1. one pair of subsamples (from each of the four textile samples provided, the shroud and three controls) was treated with dilute hydrochloric acid, dilute sodium hydroxide and again in acid, with rinsing in between baths.
2. the second pair of subsamples was treated with two commercial detergents (with advice supplied by Proctor & Gamble), distilled water and 0.1% hydrochloric acid; after this the samples were then submitted to a Soxhlet extraction with ethanol for an hour, followed by further washing with distilled water at 70°C in an ultrasonic bath.

The Oxford group divided their pre-cleaned sample into three parts.
1. all samples were bathed in 1 molar hydrochloric acid at 80°C for two hours followed by 1 molar sodium hydroxide at 80°C for two hours and again in acid, with rinsing in between.
2. two of the three samples were then bleached in 2.5% sodium oxychloride for thirty minutes.

Not that these mere facts will stop the pro-shroud lunacy, but I thought this might be of interest.
 
Jabba,

I don't why your toolbar is not working properly. I'm the wrong person to ask about that. Someone else here might be able to help, but probably in a different thread on a different sub-foum.

On to the topic at hand:

You really feel that some dude named Ron is a good enough source for all the claims he made in that post? Seriously? I cannot believe that your standards are that low.

And neither posts #39 nor #43 were made by you, however I remember the articles you brought to us about French "invisible" re-weaving. Here's what I remember based on the sources that you brought to us. It is neither invisible nor would it effect the C14 dating since, by definition, it would have used threads taken from other matching parts all over the shroud. If it were an "invisible" re-weave (highly unlikely in the first place), then it would have been the best possible sample of the entire shroud because it would have contained threads from all over the original fabric of the shroud. Either way, the C14 dating does not change.

Ward
Ward,
- For some reason, I'm not able to edit what I submit these days.
- I realized after submitting the post about #'s 39 and 43, I hadn't included the link. I realized this right away and tried to edit, and include the link, but it wouldn't "take." That link was http://shroud.com/pdfs/chronology.pdf.
- I've been called to breakfast. I'll be right back.
--- Jabba
 
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8649691&postcount=3296
As part of my on/off efforts to produce a definitive list of points for the shroud's medieval origin I re-read the original documentation of the radiocarbon examination process. This leads me to consider the idea of sample contamination (beloved of the shroudies) is even less likely than I'd previously considered.

Each laboratory (Zürich, Oxford and Arizona) carried out a comprehensive multi-stage cleaning of their sample. Firstly by microscopic examination and removal of gross contaminants, followed by preliminary cleaning using a mix of ultrasonic bathing, vacuum pipetting and/or hot ether soaking.
After this the samples were split and more stringent methods were used.

The Zürich group split each ultrasonically cleaned sample in half; the first set were again split into three parts and sets were subjected to:
1. room temperature 0.5% hydrochloric acid, 0.25% sodium hydroxide and then acid bathing again, with water rinsing in between each course.
2. no further treatment
3. hot (80°C) 5% hydrochloric acid, 2.5% sodium hydroxide and then acid bathing again, with water rinsing in between each course.
The second batch of samples were kept until after the first radiocarbon dating run was completed. As this showed no evidence of contamination, the second set was split into two portions, to which the weak and strong chemical treatments were applied.

The Arizona group split each sample into four subsamples.
1. one pair of subsamples (from each of the four textile samples provided, the shroud and three controls) was treated with dilute hydrochloric acid, dilute sodium hydroxide and again in acid, with rinsing in between baths.
2. the second pair of subsamples was treated with two commercial detergents (with advice supplied by Proctor & Gamble), distilled water and 0.1% hydrochloric acid; after this the samples were then submitted to a Soxhlet extraction with ethanol for an hour, followed by further washing with distilled water at 70°C in an ultrasonic bath.

The Oxford group divided their pre-cleaned sample into three parts.
1. all samples were bathed in 1 molar hydrochloric acid at 80°C for two hours followed by 1 molar sodium hydroxide at 80°C for two hours and again in acid, with rinsing in between.
2. two of the three samples were then bleached in 2.5% sodium oxychloride for thirty minutes.

Not that these mere facts will stop the pro-shroud lunacy, but I thought this might be of interest.
Yes, indeed, catesmate1.
When I first read that information I asked myself-
OK, what do the 'contamination' proponents smoke for breakfast? Where do they buy it? Why haven't they ever invited me to join them?

...Interestingly the change was [in textile experts] made by Cardinal Ballestrero, the Archbishop of Turin, acting on advice from Dr. Gonella, who was a believer in the authenticity of the shroud and a member of STURP.

So, which of them was part of the conspiracy, then?
The Cardinal or Dr. Gonella?
Or both?

... the samples were taken into an adjacent room for wrapping (in aluminium foil) and sealing in transport containers by Dr. Tite and Cardinal Ballestrero (the video camera being mounted in the main room). This was part of the blinding process, each laboratory received four samples, one from the shroud and three controls; the laboratories were not told which container held the shroud sample. ...

I thought it was most charitable of you to explain what 'blinding' means, catesmate1.


...We've dealt with the Marino/Benford nonsense before.

Well, yes, but the way the authors dragged in the Archduchess is always worth a giggle, don't you think?

The phrase following the one cited by Pharaoh earlier says it all:
The few short but blissful years Margaret of Austria had with her one true love set in motion a lifetime mission to fulfill her beloved’s dying request to build a church in Brou.
 
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Yes.
When I first read that information I asked myself-
OK, what do the 'contamination' proponents smoke for breakfast? Where do they buy it? Why haven't they ever invited me to join them?
Indeed, the more you look at it the more stupid that theory becomes.

...Interestingly the change was [in textile experts] made by Cardinal Ballestrero, the Archbishop of Turin, acting on advice from Dr. Gonella, who was a believer in the authenticity of the shroud and a member of STURP.

So, which of them was part of the conspiracy, then?
The Cardinal or Dr. Gonella?
Or both?
Well given that Jabba/Rick's "source" also implies malfeasence on the part the sample handlers also, it'd have to be the Cardinal-Archbishop.
:rolleyes:


I thought it was most charitable of you to explain what 'blinding' means, catesmate1.
Well Jabba/Rick seems a little uncertain on the science-y bits.

Well, yes, but the way the authors dragged in the Archduchess is always worth a giggle, don't you think?
:rolleyes:

The phrase following the one cited by Pharaoh earlier says it all:
The few short but blissful years Margaret of Austria had with her one true love set in motion a lifetime mission to fulfill her beloved’s dying request to build a church in Brou.
:rolleyes:
Though if you look at Benford, or the links posted earlier in this thread when Jabba/Rick brought her ravings in first, you'll see she's a general purpose woo.
 
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