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Vaccine/autism CT discussion

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Mudcat said:
Because their existence allows him to accuse the government of not doing enough to protect people from those diseases maybe?

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
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Just imagine CTists being in charge of public health. The streets would be like charnel houses.
 
How dare these scientists and doctors busy themselves with saving lives? Who do they think they are?
 
Robert Prey said:
Factually incorrect. Polio immunity may be passed on from persons who have no symptoms. And Polio infections may be passed on due to persons who have been vaccinated.
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First, I never said that polio immunity cannot be passed on asymptomatically from wild type polio, only that it is at the cost of a significant subset of people in the infected population developing the paralytic form rather than the mild intestinal or asymptomatic version.

The killed vaccine has zero chance of inducing a paralytic form. The attenuated live vaccine has a tiny risk, one that is so much smaller than the risk in the unvaccinated population as to justify its use. But you know that,too!

Second, this is exactly the response I expected of you. It proves that, unlike Clayton, you know the facts about vaccination, but are selectively presenting these facts to argue a point. You make statements such as vaccines sometimes cause the disease they are meant to protect against, which is factually correct, but you also know the actual statistics, how rare those events are, and how the benefits far outway the risks. Of course you can/will claim the real statistics are different and hidden from the public, but in truth I have no doubt that you are yourself fully vaccinated.

So in the end I am happy to debate Clayton because I believe he simply doesn't have the facts and somehow I have the hope that the facts will turn him around. But I have no interest in further debating you, because you do have the facts, and I don't think your real opinion is one I need to change.
 
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Robert Prey said:
Wanna bet? Your Wikapedia definition is factually incorrect.

Herd immunity
"A level of resistance in a herd or flock which is sufficient to prevent the entry of a particular disease into, or its spread within, the herd. The resistance may be innate, a genetically based resistance, or acquired as a result of previous exposure to the particular agent or of vaccination.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Herd+Immunity

Thus, herd immunity may be and perhaps mostly is the result of previous infections to some of the population. In the case of Polio, many more people acquired Polio but had no symptoms, and thus were able to pass on immunity to others without having the disease even diagnosed. Fact is, at the time of the initial mass vaccinations, Polio, was already in decline due to herd immunity.
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Uh, no.

The world's largest outbreak of polio was in the early to mid 1950s, just prior to the introduction of the first polio vaccine.

At its peak in the 1940s and 1950s, polio would paralyze or kill over half a million people worldwide every year.

Here's a nice picture to help you:

picture.php


You are completely ignorant about polio.
 
Robert Prey said:
Wanna bet? Your Wikapedia definition is factually incorrect.

Herd immunity
"A level of resistance in a herd or flock which is sufficient to prevent the entry of a particular disease into, or its spread within, the herd. The resistance may be innate, a genetically based resistance, or acquired as a result of previous exposure to the particular agent or of vaccination.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Herd+Immunity

Thus, herd immunity may be and perhaps mostly is the result of previous infections to some of the population. In the case of Polio, many more people acquired Polio but had no symptoms, and thus were able to pass on immunity to others without having the disease even diagnosed. Fact is, at the time of the initial mass vaccinations, Polio, was already in decline due to herd immunity.
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I find it interesting that you only cited a definition after I cited one that contradicted you.

http://www.nhs.uk/Planners/vaccinations/Pages/sciencevaccinations.aspx
If enough people in a community are vaccinated, it’s harder for a disease to pass between those who are not. This is called herd immunity.

Herd immunity is particularly important in protecting people who can't get vaccinated because they're too ill or they're having treatment that damages their immune system.​

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/pages/communityimmunity.aspx

When a critical portion of a community is immunized against a contagious disease, most members of the community are protected against that disease because there is little opportunity for an outbreak. Even those who are not eligible for certain vaccines—such as infants, pregnant women, or immunocompromised individuals—get some protection because the spread of contagious disease is contained. This is known as "community immunity."​

Please provide evidence for your claim that polio was in decline when mass vaccs started. I want actual evidence, not your claims. Please also provide evidence that the decline after mass vaccs started was due to herd immunity. And don't even bother with "look for yourself" or any other attempt to shift the burden of proof, or I will call you a sophist.

And, just like I said, you avoided proving that "the statistical numbers are often cooked", despite quoting me predicting you would backpedal.
 
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I would like to remind the participants in this thread that the topic is vaccinations, not President Obama's birth certificate and especially not each other. Keeping this in mind will greatly reduce the likelihood of contracting the dreaded infractius yellowcardus. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jhunter1163
 
000063 said:
So he's a liar about vaccines now too?
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Maybe just very, very ignorant about the subject.

Which brings up this simple question Robert. If "herd immunity" was already eliminating the world of polio before the vaccination was introduced, why does polio still exist in large numbers only in countries that do not fully vaccinate their populations?

Seems like an awfully strange coincidence.
 
Robert Prey said:
Thus, herd immunity may be and perhaps mostly is the result of previous infections to some of the population. In the case of Polio, many more people acquired Polio but had no symptoms, and thus were able to pass on immunity to others without having the disease even diagnosed. Fact is, at the time of the initial mass vaccinations, Polio, was already in decline due to herd immunity.
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1) "May be," "perhaps mostly," "some." Not a very objective argument.

2) Please feel free to explain how imaginary people contracting asymptomatic Polio would be able to "pass on immunity" to others and how you know this?

3) Please provide the source for your claim "fact is" First: Polio was in decline and Second: Due to herd immunity.

Should be easy for you.
 
Robrob said:
1) "May be," "perhaps mostly," "some." Not a very objective argument.

2) Please feel free to explain how imaginary people contracting asymptomatic Polio would be able to "pass on immunity" to others and how you know this?

3) Please provide the source for your claim "fact is" First: Polio was in decline and Second: Due to herd immunity.

Should be easy for you.
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I suspect that what RP knows, but is hiding, is that the way you can pass on asymptomic polio to someone else is by infecting them with fecal material containing the same virus that you were just infected by. If this was the typical wild type polio virus, it might immunize you through an asymptomic infection, or it might paralyze you ( particularly if the infection happens after infanthood).

if you where infected with an attenuated polio virus from a vaccine, it would almost certainly immunize you without giving you paralytic disease.

There have been infrequent outbreaks of paralytic polio from attenuated live virus, I think due to unpredicted changes in the strain, but these were very rare. Even so, by being vaccinated with even these risky vaccines, your chance of developing paralytic polio was much, much less than if you had never been vaccinated at all.

I believe that in communities with very low rates of polio, the killed vaccine is preferred because it cannot cause polio ion any form,but I will confirm this.

My apologies it you already know this: I just did not want to give RP the satisfaction of continuing his distortion of these facts...
 
jhunter1163 said:
I would like to remind the participants in this thread that the topic is vaccinations, not President Obama's birth certificate and especially not each other. Keeping this in mind will greatly reduce the likelihood of contracting the dreaded infractius yellowcardus. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jhunter1163
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Why does science deny us the vital vaccination against this horrific disease?
 
Not even herd immunity can save you from that.

Which reminds me, where were we on the subject?
 
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