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Vaccine/autism CT discussion

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Robert Prey said:
But it did not kill everybody. Not a nice outcome, but natural herd immunity is how all epidemics end.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
Herd immunity (or community immunity) describes a form of immunity that occurs when the vaccination of a significant portion of a population (or herd) provides a measure of protection for individuals who have not developed immunity.​

Wherps.

Robert Prey said:
The problem with immunization is that sometimes it causes the very disease it's supposed to prevent. And the statistical numbers are often cooked.
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I must say, it is interesting to watch you start up your unbacked nonsense again. I look forward to watching you backpedal when you can't prove a word you just said in that second sentence.

Clayton Moore said:
It's more like not rocking the boat or not shaking the money tree when the non elites are looking.

A million or so laid out for research with a desired result is less than a butterfly wing in the animal world. About 100 million flu shots a year at $60 a pop + $60 a visit to the doctor.

$360,000,000,000


That's one vaccine.
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I really find it tragic that CTs often assume everyone is venal and selfish.

Of course, you're not really addressing the post you quoted again. You seem to have a habit of that. Immediately followed by, yep, some article you found and spammed. Of course, the fact that the very source you quoted - the CDC - supports vaccines will be ignored.
 
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Giordano said:
I'll take RP's posts seriously when I am convinced he does.
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Indeed. In the birther thread he stated that he wouldn't believe Obama was born in Hawai'i even if the head of the state DPH brought him the actual original document and showed it to him in person, so clearly he's just trying to find a new place to yank on chains for his own amusement.
This thread is different from the birther thread though, since people falling for vaccine cts can bring harm to their children and even people who are complete strangers to them.
 
Robert Prey said:
Not quite. Neither has Polio.
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Here's a post of mine where I linked to explanations as to why that is:

pakeha said:
.. in Nigeria... lack of information and Islamic insurgency are putting in danger the vaxx programme.

http://www.comminit.com/?q=polio/co...dhood-immunisation-and-attitude-towards-uptak

http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/51479-nigerian-unrest-harming-anti-polio-efforts

India also is having problems with Islamic fundies and their anti-vaxx sentiments:
http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-Ne...o-drive-launched-in-12-high-risk-KP-districts

An interesting insight into Saudi response to this situation:
http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-Ne...administered-anti-polio-drops-in-Saudi-Arabia

So there you are.
Who knew CM's POV was in line with that of villagers in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Nigeria?
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I'll have to change that to
Who knew CM's and RP's POVs are in line with that of villagers in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Nigeria?
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Clayton Moore said:
It's more like not rocking the boat or not shaking the money tree when the non elites are looking.

A million or so laid out for research with a desired result is less than a butterfly wing in the animal world. About 100 million flu shots a year at $60 a pop + $60 a visit to the doctor.

$360,000,000,000


That's one vaccine.
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Like I said, if "not shaking the money tree" is enough to shut up every researcher and doctor in the world, that means that every researcher and many doctors get so much money from drug companies that they knowingly ignore the harms caused by vaccines (or other drugs). 1 million dollars in grants or something similar might be enough to keep one researcher, or perhaps ten, quiet for maybe a year or two, assuming they are evil scumbags ready to ignore harm to millions of children and adults simply to maintain their income.

But bribing ten people for a couple of years is not enough. Bribing 1,000 is not enough. We are talking about the world medical research community. The whole community needs to be financially beholden to the drug companies (and completely morally bankrupt from top to bottom) in perpetuity throughout the universe. Otherwise real research will happen, get published and ruin everything.

It's true that drug companies sometimes do shady things for profit. However, the kind of conspiracy they would need in order to convince the world vaccines were good if they were not is just too much.

I conclude that there is no vaccine conspiracy, and that research suggests vaccines are awesome because vaccines simply are awesome. (I like avoiding disease. It's great.)
 
Arisia said:
Indeed. In the birther thread he stated that he wouldn't believe Obama was born in Hawai'i even if the head of the state DPH brought him the actual original document and showed it to him in person,
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Ah,ah, ah. May I remind you that it is a sin to tell a lie.
 
dafydd said:
Believe it. Measles, mumps, chicken pox, German measles and whooping cough are not deadly diseases if you catch them at an early age. I had them all. All my class did. Nobody died. Mothers knew this but you don't. We are not talking about the Black Death or Typhoid.
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It's a percentage game; those diseases are milder if you have them young, but they can still be deadly or very serious in their effects, but rarely enough that it's quite possible not to personally know anyone so affected. For example, Roald Dahl lost his daughter to measles because vaccination wasn't available. Vaccination is also not totally risk-free, but the numbers are whole lot more favourable than having children catch the diseases when young.

I wasn't aware of parties to spread diseases when I was young, and was fairly shocked when I heard of the idea much more recently. One of things I must remember to ask my mum about. On the other hand, my sister and I seemed to pick up all the common diseases without trying too hard.
 
000063 said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
Herd immunity (or community immunity) describes a form of immunity that occurs when the vaccination of a significant portion of a population (or herd) provides a measure of protection for individuals who have not developed immunity.​

Wherps.

I must say, it is interesting to watch you start up your unbacked nonsense again. I look forward to watching you backpedal when you can't prove a word you just said in that second sentence.

.
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Wanna bet? Your Wikapedia definition is factually incorrect.

Herd immunity
"A level of resistance in a herd or flock which is sufficient to prevent the entry of a particular disease into, or its spread within, the herd. The resistance may be innate, a genetically based resistance, or acquired as a result of previous exposure to the particular agent or of vaccination.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Herd+Immunity

Thus, herd immunity may be and perhaps mostly is the result of previous infections to some of the population. In the case of Polio, many more people acquired Polio but had no symptoms, and thus were able to pass on immunity to others without having the disease even diagnosed. Fact is, at the time of the initial mass vaccinations, Polio, was already in decline due to herd immunity.
 
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Mudcat said:
You balk at mild symptoms of a life threatening disease, yet think thousands of people dropping like flies is preferable?



Yes, towards reality. Otherwise someone would raise an alarm, it would be investigated, and the method would no longer be used.

Why has this not happened?
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It happens every day.
 
Robert Prey said:
Wanna bet? Your Wikapedia definition is factually incorrect.

Herd immunity
"A level of resistance in a herd or flock which is sufficient to prevent the entry of a particular disease into, or its spread within, the herd. The resistance may be innate, a genetically based resistance, or acquired as a result of previous exposure to the particular agent or of vaccination.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Herd+Immunity

Thus, herd immunity may be and perhaps mostly is the result of previous infections to some of the population. In the case of Polio, many more people acquired Polio but had no symptoms, and thus were able to pass on immunity to others without having the disease even diagnosed. Fact is, at the time of the initial mass vaccinations, Polio, was already in decline due to herd immunity.
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Great, so all we need to do is make sure that we have herd immunity against diseases, then those will decline and maybe eventually disappear entirely. Since vaccines cause immunity with far less risk than the disease, they are the perfect way to ensure herd immunity. We can give vaccines to just about everyone, creating significant herd immunity in a matter of years. We don't have to wait for the miraculous event of the entire world getting a disease at the same time for sufficient herd immunity to arise. You've convinced me, Robert. Vaccines truly are the way to go. Thanks for your help.
 
Giordano said:
In a way... Like all microbial diseases, the plague was it's own unattenuated "vaccine": unfortunately one that killed most of the people it infected.

Also there is evidence that there is a genetic component to resistance.

But Robert, i suspect you know this. And you probably know polio can manifest as both a non- paralytic and a paralytic form, and the link to age of exposure of these forms. You probably also know how many children need to be paralyzed by the virulent, natural form of polio to generate immunity in the rest of the population, versus the vaccine, which achieves the same effect without the paralysis.

But perhaps you find the debate more entertainning than the facts.
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Factually incorrect. Polio immunity may be passed on from persons who have no symptoms. And Polio infections may be passed on due to persons who have been vaccinated.
 
dafydd said:
And they don't get polio because they have been vaccinated. Why are you a fan of these horrid diseases?
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Because their existence allows him to accuse the government of not doing enough to protect people from those diseases maybe?

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
 
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