Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

[uk_dave]

Yes, just click the little arrow to the left of Layer 1 and the rest of the table will minimize.

No, I mean, if you switch off the layer (or delete it) do the objects listed as 'groups' disappear from the document, meaning they are all contained within that single layer (as opposed to Prey's contention that they are themselves individual layers)?

 

[BazBear]

No, I mean, if you switch off the layer (or delete it) do the objects listed as 'groups' disappear from the document, meaning they are all contained within that single layer (as opposed to Prey's contention that they are themselves individual layers)?

Yes.

 

[Mudcat]

Oh, I did read it, teach, But to understand it one would have to turn one's brain into a pretzel.

That's some extreme irony, given the amount of mental contortions you have to go through just to keep this birtherism nonsense up.

 

[JayUtah]

"Here's a challenge..."

An ignorant challenge from someone who demonstrates no useful understanding of PDF imaging models and file structure, no understanding of the combinatorial complexity of the problem, and obviously someone who can't tell a layer from an object. She writes books on how to make pretty pictures with Photoshop. She is not a computer scientist. She has no training or experience in forensic document authentication or image analysis, is not accepted by any court in this nation as a relevant expert, and went on to shoot herself in the foot by comically "analyzing" other White House photographs for allegations of forgery, demonstrating almost silly levels of basic perceptual errors and technical incompetence.

She is not a subject matter expert by anyone's estimation but a small group of disgruntled yokels, and the conditions of her "challenge" are simply bluster and sour grapes that sidestep her earlier gaffes. She wouldn't pass my image analysis class nor my basic data structures class, would not survive a week on my engineering team, and I will happily tell any and all of that to her face.

My challenge to Mara Zebest is to do both of these:

1. Scan a color document and optimize it, and end up with only one object.

2. Remove the document, replace it, scan it again, optimize it, and verify that the second result is a bitwise copy of the first.

Robert, I have dealt with all these issues at an expert level. Your frantic handwaving and citations of a deposed and disqualified experts trying to deflect the burden of proof are just sad. Why don't you take the above challenge and report your results here. Oh, that's right: you don't actually do experiments.

 

[davefoc]

So, Scanners do have x-ray vision????

RP, I believe you are referring here to a claim that parts of the background that are obscured by foreground objects are actually visible in the Obama birth certificate PDF file. Is this correct? Zebest makes this argument on page 6 or her report when she repeats the claim that there is something similar to a football held behind somebody's back that appears in the Obama PDF file.

I agree that finding such a "football" in the Obama birth certificate PDF file would be strong evidence that the file contains evidence of human involved image editing.

Can you point out where this "football" is in the PDF file? It is apparent that a few irregular areas of the background are contained in a different object. This, of course, doesn't require that the scanner have x-ray vision. It just requires a mindless PDF file creation algorithm that detects a variation in the background that causes PDF file creation software to store these irregular areas in a different object. A "football", of course, would be a very different thing than this. If there is an area of the background image that appears in the PDF file that should have been invisible because it was obscured by foreground content this would be a very big deal. If such a "football" exists in the PDF file, not only will the participants in this thread find it interesting, I think national news services will find it interesting enough to report on it as well. You might obtain a modicum of national fame for bringing this information forward.

If you can point out this "football" a lot of us that think that Zebest is either just making stuff up or is bizarrely incompetent will need to reexamine that view. Of course, if you can't point out this "football" that Zebest referred to there will be yet another reason to view Zebest as just one more random crackpot that flits around these fringe theories exciting the faithful, but accomplishing nothing else.


Zebest report referenced above:
http://www.mcso.org/MultiMedia/PressRelease/MARAZEBESTREPORT.pdf

 

[Travis]

I'm just checking back into the thread. Nice to see that some things don't change.


Robert still does not understand PDF's.

Robert still does not understand what a COLB is.

Robert still does not understand what a certified copy is.

Robert still has not provided any reason why the original COLB should not have been enough.

And I have yet to hear any hypothesis on why Barack's mom was out of the country when she gave birth.

 

[Straw Man]

I'm just checking back into the thread. Nice to see that some things don't change.


Robert still does not understand PDF's.

Robert still does not understand what a COLB is.

Robert still does not understand what a certified copy is.

Robert still has not provided any reason why the original COLB should not have been enough.

And I have yet to hear any hypothesis on why Barack's mom was out of the country when she gave birth.

One fact at a time, please.

 

[BazBear]

I'm just checking back into the thread. Nice to see that some things don't change.

Are you really sure about that Travis?

Robert still does not understand PDF's

. Presidential Digital Forgery perhaps?

Robert still does not understand what a COLB is.

Could it be the NASDAQ trading symbol for a Rothschild/Illuminati^TM Group front company called the Columbia Banking System?

Robert still does not understand what a certified copy is.

Possibly a 2010 French fim?

Robert still has not provided any reason why the original COLB should not have been enough.

Maybe the Rothschild/Illuminati^TM Group needed even more money to pull off the conspiracy?

And I have yet to hear any hypothesis on why Barack's mom was out of the country when she gave birth.

Her frequent flier miles were about to expire?

We may never know the truth!

 

[Arus808]

Hawaii has never verified the COLB as an exact copy of the original.

they verified that the information on the COLB posted at the White house website is the exact information they have on file in their records, which is what they were asked to do. You are now adding a birther requirement that is not needed nor is it even warranted.

So you have to reconcile with that. Why would the White house forge a document that has the exact information that Hawaii has in their records, instead of just getting an official certified document that has the information in the first place?

Oh wait, Obama's administration did just that.

 

[Arus808]

But every copy is different from the original. there is always something altered, just by the action of copying. Speck of dust, scratch on the glass plate, not copying embossed marks (if present on the original), distrortions of safety features, doesn't matter. There is always something different.
That means that every and all originals are suspect after they have been copied? Because that is what you are saying.

Correct.

No two scans of the same document will be the same, even scanned on the same scanner. So asking for a "complete duplicate replication" of anything is pretty much Robert asking for the impossible; its a red herring.

He still ignores that Hawaii has verified the information already, now to the tune of 3 times and that Full Faith and Credit trumps any claims he has any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

 

[Dcdrac]

Should the birthers be sent a bill for all the work Hawaii and the White House ahs had to do on this?

Also Mr Prey

have you asked to have

Joe Arapios birth certifcate verified
Mitt Romneys
and all the still living past Presidents?

 

[Robert Prey]

Umpteen experts on the web, two here alone have shown the birthers positions to be baseless...

Umpteen, eh? Sounds like a lot. Can you name one?

 

[Dcdrac]

Jay Utah and Abbadon here for two

They dmonstrated comclusivly you know nothing at all about PDFs or digital documentation and what is worse is you refuse to even try to comprehend thier explanations.

All you do is hand wave, and it does not take long to find people with real expertise who demolish the birther claims you should try it.

Now

how far have you got with proving:

Joe Arapio was born in the USA

Mitt Romney was born in the USA

and all still living past Presidents?

 

[Robert Prey]

RP, I believe you are referring here to a claim that parts of the background that are obscured by foreground objects are actually visible in the Obama birth certificate PDF file. Is this correct? Zebest makes this argument on page 6 or her report when she repeats the claim that there is something similar to a football held behind somebody's back that appears in the Obama PDF file.

I agree that finding such a "football" in the Obama birth certificate PDF file would be strong evidence that the file contains evidence of human involved image editing.

Can you point out where this "football" is in the PDF file? It is apparent that a few irregular areas of the background are contained in a different object. This, of course, doesn't require that the scanner have x-ray vision. It just requires a mindless PDF file creation algorithm that detects a variation in the background that causes PDF file creation software to store these irregular areas in a different object. A "football", of course, would be a very different thing than this. If there is an area of the background image that appears in the PDF file that should have been invisible because it was obscured by foreground content this would be a very big deal. If such a "football" exists in the PDF file, not only will the participants in this thread find it interesting, I think national news services will find it interesting enough to report on it as well. You might obtain a modicum of national fame for bringing this information forward.

If you can point out this "football" a lot of us that think that Zebest is either just making stuff up or is bizarrely incompetent will need to reexamine that view. Of course, if you can't point out this "football" that Zebest referred to there will be yet another reason to view Zebest as just one more random crackpot that flits around these fringe theories exciting the faithful, but accomplishing nothing else.


Zebest report referenced above:
http://www.mcso.org/MultiMedia/PressRelease/MARAZEBESTREPORT.pdf

The football challenge is slightly hyperbolic. If there was a football created on a separate layer, the result would be the same as these with splotches when the image is toggled to disappear, the background would show betraying the document as a digital creation and not a flat copy.

 

[Robert Prey]

I'm just checking back into the thread. Nice to see that some things don't change.


Robert still does not understand PDF's.

Robert still does not understand what a COLB is.

Robert still does not understand what a certified copy is.

Robert still has not provided any reason why the original COLB should not have been enough.

And I have yet to hear any hypothesis on why Barack's mom was out of the country when she gave birth.

 

[Dcdrac]

Robert you have not proved a thing other than your ignorance.

now where is the proof that Joe Arapio and Mitt Romney's borth certifcates are not fakes

 

[Mojo]

Slurs and ad hominems noted.

As has already been explained to you, pointing out that someone who has been put forward as an expert does not have the claimed expertise is not an ad hominem argument.

 

[Dcdrac]

Ms zebest is nto an expert though that has been established, she is not qulaified to make any judgements about electronic documentation as has been pointed out by people here who are so quailified.

No amount of hand waving will change that Mr Prey

 

[000063]

Hawaii has never verified the COLB as an exact copy of the original.

Nor do they have any obligation to. A copy does not need to be an exact match to be valid. Nor does it change the fact that Hawaii itself says he was born there, which you are ignoring.

I don't think there are very many white, fair skinned Swedish grandmothers illegally crossing the southern border.

I'd honestly have no problem with going after illegals by investigating people who are in certain ethnic groups if it were in any way reliable. Arizona is 30% Hispanic.

An alteration is an alteration. Not a copy of the original. And if one aspect of a document is altered, it is reasonable to suspect the entire document.

So if a copy were in black and white where the original had color, even if it was just one box ticked with a blue pen, it would make sense to assume the whole thing is faked.

Got it.

I also note that you never actually answer the question.

Umpteen, eh? Sounds like a lot. Can you name one?

Jay "JayUtah" Windley.

Quote-mine.

And that comprehensive discussion was an absolutely brilliant Orwellian brain twister to the effect that the Occiputal lobe really isn't located where it is located. Almost as brilliantly Orwelliian as his explanation as to how a scanner can have x-ray vision.

Of course you respond to the incidental remarks rather than the meat of the post. And quote-mine again.

Slurs and ad hominems noted. I take it you decline the challenge. Why am I not surprised? Channeling the unquestioned, indefatigable computer expert Ms. Zebest, she awards you, professor, the grade F for Fail.

Irony noted. Once again; criticizing someone's alleged expertise is not the same as an ad hominem or a slur. By the way, do you know who is a computer scientist, not just an "expert"? JayUtah. Even if you didn't have access to that page, he's demonstrated his expertise in computer science in general and image manipulation in particular over and over in this thread, and you haven't been able to address it in any detail whatsoever.

If this were a political debate, Jay would be the candidate presenting a detailed and reasoned series of points on economics and financial response, and you would be the other guy whose only response is "You don't know what you're talking about."
Moderator: Care to explain?
You: No.

 

[abaddon]

Slurs and ad hominems noted. I take it you decline the challenge. Why am I not surprised? Channeling the unquestioned, indefatigable computer expert Ms. Zebest, she awards you, professor, the grade F for Fail.

That's just a bit hypocritical.
When are you going to produce that elusive multicoloured pixel?
When are you going to print Pantone 877?