Lockerbie: London Origin Theory

Hillsborough? Massive institutional conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. Hundreds of rank and file police ordered to change their statements to cover up for police negligence. And somehow it took 23 years and a judicial inquiry before it became publicly accepted. Hillsborough happened just weeks after Lockerbie of course.

Channel 4 News this evening had a big feature on the report, and Lockerbie got a mention in the middle as another possible example from that time of police misconduct. That was interesting. The cases aren't entirely parallel, obviously - for one thing, the motivation for what was done about Hillsborough was pretty blatant and I don't understand the motivation in the Lockerbie inquiry for ignoring the Heathrow evidence.

But what has come out from Hillsborough should leave us in no doubt at all that it is possible for the police to mount a top-down cover-up conspiracy on a massive scale.

Rolfe.
 
I thought you wrote that Lockerbie was a cock up of gigantic proportions as opposed to a deliberate cover up by the police?
 
What is it that's usually covered up? Oh that's right, a cock-up of monumental proportions.

Rolfe.
 
Now Im confused, are you suggesting the police covered up the legal defence teams cock up in the Megrahi case?

That would be a little odd.
 
Really, I'm not that interested in sorting out your confusion, since you have declined all invitations to find out about the actual case. Indeed, you appear to have skimmed right over earlier posts where I have (silly me) tried to explain some basics to you.

Maybe you could find a different thread to troll when the FOTL woos aren't playing?

Rolfe.
 
Ah, I'm going to regret this, but more for any lurkers than for JB, I'll give it another shot.

  1. There is clear, irrefutable and compelling evidence that the bomb was introduced into the baggage container in the interline shed at Heathrow Terminal 1 between 4.15 and 4.45 pm, which is an hour before the feeder flight from Frankfurt landed. (This, by the way, completely absolves Megrahi, who was provably in Tripoli at that time.)
  2. The initial police investigation during 1989-90 completely overlooked this evidence, and instead became fixated on the theory that the bomb was introduced into the luggage system on Malta early that morning, and was transferred to the baggage container from the Frankfurt flight.
  3. Although the investigators had a damn good idea who the terrorists were from the very early stages of the inquiry, extensive and detailed investigation on Malta failed to find any evidence at all of this gang having been anywhere near Luqa airport that morning. This eventually led to this group being dropped as suspects.
  4. Later still, a suspect was identified who had been near Luqa airport that morning, and the cops set about fitting him up.
  5. Due to the unusual political circumstances there was a gap of eight years before the actual trial proceedings commenced. During that time the investigation was essentially at a standstill.
  6. When the trial was imminent, the Crown Office was provided with the evidence to be used to construct their case, by the police. In the course of their analysis of the evidence provided, Crown Office lawyers spotted the evidence referred to in point 1.
  7. In order to prevent the Court spotting it, the Crown concealed certain key points of evidence from the Court. They did this cleverly enough that the defence didn't spot it either.
Is that clear enough, or should I draw a picture?

There are three points in that process where misconduct may have or definitely did occur.

Point 2. Did the investigation simply fail to spot that evidence in 1989, or was there a deliberate policy of overlooking it in order not to implicate Britain's flagship airport in the disaster? Both alternatives seem inherently unlikely; the first because the evidence really is absolutely in-your-face, and the second because, well, it's a conspiracy theory. However, one or other must have happened.

Point 4
. When the police have decided to construct a case against a suspect for whom they have no smoking gun, history teaches us that improper conduct is far from unusual. This case was no exception. There was massaging and concealing of evidence, and grooming, coaching, threatening and bribery of witnesses. This extended right through to the trial, where at least one witness perjured himself, and the Lord Advocate gave false information to the bench, all to keep the case from collapsing.

Point 7. Even if the overlooking of the Heathrow evidence was inadvertent in 1989-90, it was spotted in 1999 by the prosecution team. One day if we're supremely lucky we may see memos or minutes of these discussions. I suspect it was serious brown-trouser time. Instead of presenting the evidence honestly so that the Court could draw its own conclusions, the Crown chose to conceal important evidence and present a false, contrived scenario which allowed the possibility of the bomb having come from the Frankfurt flight to continue to be asserted.

It seems to take 20 to 30 years for the British state to deal with its notorious cover-ups in a decent and honourable fashion. Hillsborough (1989) was laid bare last week. Bloody Sunday (1972) took longer, being finally laid to rest in 2010. This year sees the 24th anniversary of Lockerbie.

Rolfe.
 
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It seems to take 20 to 30 years for the British state to deal with its notorious cover-ups in a decent and honourable fashion. Hillsborough (1989) was laid bare last week. Bloody Sunday (1972) took longer, being finally laid to rest in 2010. This year sees the 24th anniversary of Lockerbie.

fingers-crossed.jpg
 
Indeed.

Does that mean you actually understood what I was saying? (Said more in hope than expectation.)

Rolfe.
 
Does that mean you actually understood what I was saying? (Said more in hope than expectation.)
I do understand what you are saying, however it's the constant reviewing and revising your actual evidence that is muddying the water, you cant seem to make your mind up, I only need to go back a few pages and its just word salad over and over again.
I have said before that you are actually turning people away from this thread because of it, no one posts apart from me, you and Caustic Logic.
 
It seems to take 20 to 30 years for the British state to deal with its notorious cover-ups in a decent and honourable fashion. Hillsborough (1989) was laid bare last week. Bloody Sunday (1972) took longer, being finally laid to rest in 2010. This year sees the 24th anniversary of Lockerbie.

Rolfe.

If Britain gets it's prosecutorial misdirection corrective time shortened, they can try fixing DuPage County, Illinois.
 
Why would Britain (actually Scotland in this case) be authorised to intervene in a US case? In the Lockerbie case, of course the US is part of the problem, with sadly ill-informed US relatives of victims baying for Megrahi to stay in jail till he died rather than examining the evidence and getting upset that the murderer of their loved ones has not been caught.

Your Wikipedia link is absolutely useless. A bald resume of the court processes, and absolutely no indication of what the evidence was or even which verdict is being claimed to have been factually wrong. If it's a case you find interesting, why not start a thread in Social Issues and discuss it with others who have an interest in miscarriages of justice?

Rolfe.
 
Why would Britain (actually Scotland in this case) be authorised to intervene in a US case? In the Lockerbie case, of course the US is part of the problem, with sadly ill-informed US relatives of victims baying for Megrahi to stay in jail till he died rather than examining the evidence and getting upset that the murderer of their loved ones has not been caught.

Your Wikipedia link is absolutely useless. A bald resume of the court processes, and absolutely no indication of what the evidence was or even which verdict is being claimed to have been factually wrong. If it's a case you find interesting, why not start a thread in Social Issues and discuss it with others who have an interest in miscarriages of justice?

Rolfe.

Testy? I was just making a link to another incident of dragged out prosecutorial misconduct. I could drag out better links in the case, and several other cases. There are many such, no doubt, worldwide. It is a large problem, of which Lockerbie is another, grander example.
 
Sorry, didn't mean to sound testy, I just found that wiki page extremely uninformative, and the US case it references to be quite remote.

Indeed, the Lockerbie case is "just" another example of a police screw-up followed by the prosecuting authority taking the flawed evidence and going hell-bent on getting a conviction and never mind the poor schmuck in the dock who doesn't know what hit him. It's hardly new and it's hardly even remarkable.

It would of course be better to discuss the case in the Social Issues forum area, because that's where people interested in debating suspected miscarriage of justice cases mostly hang out. Unfortunately because it concerns an act of terrorism it's forbidden to discuss it anywhere but here, where the usual posters aren't that interested because they don't have anything to get their debunking teeth into.

Oh well. Progress occurs in spite of obstacles.

Rolfe.
 
Ah, I'm going to regret this, but more for any lurkers than for JB, I'll give it another shot.

  1. There is clear, irrefutable and compelling evidence that the bomb was introduced into the baggage container in the interline shed at Heathrow Terminal 1 between 4.15 and 4.45 pm, which is an hour before the feeder flight from Frankfurt landed. (This, by the way, completely absolves Megrahi, who was provably in Tripoli at that time.)
  2. The initial police investigation during 1989-90 completely overlooked this evidence, and instead became fixated on the theory that the bomb was introduced into the luggage system on Malta early that morning, and was transferred to the baggage container from the Frankfurt flight.
  3. Although the investigators had a damn good idea who the terrorists were from the very early stages of the inquiry, extensive and detailed investigation on Malta failed to find any evidence at all of this gang having been anywhere near Luqa airport that morning. This eventually led to this group being dropped as suspects.
  4. Later still, a suspect was identified who had been near Luqa airport that morning, and the cops set about fitting him up.
  5. Due to the unusual political circumstances there was a gap of eight years before the actual trial proceedings commenced. During that time the investigation was essentially at a standstill.
  6. When the trial was imminent, the Crown Office was provided with the evidence to be used to construct their case, by the police. In the course of their analysis of the evidence provided, Crown Office lawyers spotted the evidence referred to in point 1.
  7. In order to prevent the Court spotting it, the Crown concealed certain key points of evidence from the Court. They did this cleverly enough that the defence didn't spot it either.
Is that clear enough, or should I draw a picture?

There are three points in that process where misconduct may have or definitely did occur.

Point 2. Did the investigation simply fail to spot that evidence in 1989, or was there a deliberate policy of overlooking it in order not to implicate Britain's flagship airport in the disaster? Both alternatives seem inherently unlikely; the first because the evidence really is absolutely in-your-face, and the second because, well, it's a conspiracy theory. However, one or other must have happened.

Point 4
. When the police have decided to construct a case against a suspect for whom they have no smoking gun, history teaches us that improper conduct is far from unusual. This case was no exception. There was massaging and concealing of evidence, and grooming, coaching, threatening and bribery of witnesses. This extended right through to the trial, where at least one witness perjured himself, and the Lord Advocate gave false information to the bench, all to keep the case from collapsing.

Point 7. Even if the overlooking of the Heathrow evidence was inadvertent in 1989-90, it was spotted in 1999 by the prosecution team. One day if we're supremely lucky we may see memos or minutes of these discussions. I suspect it was serious brown-trouser time. Instead of presenting the evidence honestly so that the Court could draw its own conclusions, the Crown chose to conceal important evidence and present a false, contrived scenario which allowed the possibility of the bomb having come from the Frankfurt flight to continue to be asserted.

It seems to take 20 to 30 years for the British state to deal with its notorious cover-ups in a decent and honourable fashion. Hillsborough (1989) was laid bare last week. Bloody Sunday (1972) took longer, being finally laid to rest in 2010. This year sees the 24th anniversary of Lockerbie.

Rolfe.

Thanks. I was hoping for something like this.
 
I just saw this. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19628963 Particularly the last paragraph.

Hell's teeth, where did they get that from?

Rolfe.



Hmmm...a letter to the Crown Office and someone there has leaked it?

Also, just watching that report on Newsnight and I'm sure it showed some other passport photo other than the Abdusamad photo or the black & white Czech one of Megrahi.
 
We've just been treated to a 5-minute piece on the ongoing investigation, by BBC Scotland. The current attitude is, we're right and we're not listening to you bunch of superannuated cranks. However, the superannuated cranks have a trick or two up their sleeve.

When the police get a crap case through the courts, it's like shifting Ben Nevis to get it impartially reconsidered. The Innocence Project described it as being like unbaking a cake. You can protest all you like, but getting the facts looked at without the mindset of "we're here to justify the original decision" imposing itself is extraordinarily difficult.

Perhaps I'm being unduly optimistic, but I have some hopes that being able to allege that the Crown spotted the implications of Bedford's evidence in 1999 and changed its trial strategy to conceal these implications, might get through to someone. We'll see. This isn't the 1950s USSR, and it should be possible for ordinary citizens to insist that justice has not been seen to be done.

Rolfe.
 
Hmmm...a letter to the Crown Office and someone there has leaked it?

Also, just watching that report on Newsnight and I'm sure it showed some other passport photo other than the Abdusamad photo or the black & white Czech one of Megrahi.


Sorry, I forgot to click on "submit" on that last post at the time!

A letter definitely NOT to the Crown Office. I imagine it's OK, as no details have been given about what the evidence is or what anybody is doing about it. I was just a bit surprised to see any reference at all.

Patience is a virtue. If you're sitting up and taking notice again, I'll email you some details.

The photo on Newsnicht was the Abdusamad passport one. I saw the rubber stamp mark on the left-hand side.

Rolfe.
 
Point 2. Did the investigation simply fail to spot that evidence in 1989, or was there a deliberate policy of overlooking it in order not to implicate Britain's flagship airport in the disaster? Both alternatives seem inherently unlikely; the first because the evidence really is absolutely in-your-face, and the second because, well, it's a conspiracy theory. However, one or other must have happened.

Post the 1983 Brink's-MAT robbery it seems unlikely that anyone would have considered Heathrow's repuation for a lack of security as something worth defending.
 
Sorry, I forgot to click on "submit" on that last post at the time!

A letter definitely NOT to the Crown Office. I imagine it's OK, as no details have been given about what the evidence is or what anybody is doing about it. I was just a bit surprised to see any reference at all.

Patience is a virtue. If you're sitting up and taking notice again, I'll email you some details.

The photo on Newsnicht was the Abdusamad passport one. I saw the rubber stamp mark on the left-hand side.

Rolfe.



Yeah, I'm still up Rolfe, so fire away.

No much to say recently as I've been trawling through the Heathrow statements to see if anything else cropped up. Apart from the remarkable series of statements by Sidhu obviously, but I've not spotted anything of great significance.

Well, Baz was also right about O'Connor's suitcases being left behind, and although both his cases were found, it is also stated by Pan Am lead Agent Richard Miller (DOC 219 / S1273A) that he checked in Mr O'Connor (and Rubin and Stow) and said he only checked 1 bag in. A few other statements clearly imply that there were two bags, and the two were referred to by Lynette Maxwell (Doc 202 / S2896) as part of three bags found on the 22nd Dec tagged for 103 the previous evening.

As an aside, I've also been browsing that document/newpaper viewer I can get access to of lots of the early - Jan '89 thru Sep '89 - articles to see, with our new information, anything now stands out. Again, that's been pretty fruitless. Except for one article from the first week of February '89 which relates to the investiagtion looking for asssistance from various govts, groups and organisations. One being the PLO, and a long article of Yasser Arafat's condemnation and offer to help track down the culprits.

In the middle of the long piece on him, it refers to a meeting in which Arafat is in possession of a substantial dossier on the 103 bombing, and he states that he has some clues and is already sure that the bomb was in a brown samsonite suitcase that came from Frankfurt. However, in context, this seems to clearly imply that his sources mean it was one of the bombs constructed near Frankfurt, not neccessarily loaded there.

But I found Arafat's dossier reference, coming only 5/6 weeks into the investigation, talking about a brown samsonite quite curious.
 
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