Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[Ocelot]

http://icbseverywhere.com/blog/2012/08/on-oversimplification-and-certaint/
If ever there were a ^This that needed ^Thissing then ^This is it. The more I read from Barbara Drescher the more I want to read more.

On a side note it looks like the JREF are paying attention to my views on this matter.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/jref-news/1837-jref-staff.html

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

On a side note it looks like the JREF are paying attention to my views on this matter.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/jref-news/1837-jref-staff.html

She has one of the few blogs I ever read. Not often, but more often than others, which is mostly never.

 

[westprog]

I've heard that for good people to do evil things ... that takes religion.

Yes, I've heard that too.

It's not true.

 

[Hokulele]

Somebody emails this guy calling his daughter a slut, which makes him upset and angry, and the fact that he got upset and angry is now a vector of attack against his daughter? What on Earth...?

No, it is an attack on the people who claim to be for social justice, and yet let comments like the one by this man slide. If my father ever offered violence in response to insults hurled in my direction, I would be appalled for several reasons:

1) Physical violence is an inappropriate response to this sort of taunt. There are many better ways to handle trolling by idiots on the Internet.

2) My father raised me to be capable not only of fighting my own battles, but to be capable of determining which battles are worth fighting, and which ones are simply beneath even contempt, and should be given the consideration they are due. I.e., none.

3) The fact that the label "slut" was the one that enraged this man. Personally, I do not feel that consensual sexual behavior is anything to be ashamed over. I would be more amused by being labeled a slut, much the way I would be amused by being labeled a lesbian. As a feminist myself, I think the better way to handle slurs of this nature are to essentially take them back and remove their stigma, rather than offering to physically harm the person making the slur.

But hey, I am just a regular, garden-variety "atheist", what do I know about social justice?

 

[bpesta22]

She has one of the few blogs I ever read. Not often, but more often than others, which is mostly never.

Does she post here?

An FTBer commissioned her to debate me on an IQ study I did awhile back. It was an interesting exchange. Haven't followed her much since then, but I got the impression the FTB kool aid wore off for her, and I wondered why...

 

[Piscivore]

No, it is an attack on the people who claim to be for social justice, and yet let comments like the one by this man slide. If my father ever offered violence in response to insults hurled in my direction, I would be appalled for several reasons:

1) Physical violence is an inappropriate response to this sort of taunt. There are many better ways to handle trolling by idiots on the Internet.

2) My father raised me to be capable not only of fighting my own battles, but to be capable of determining which battles are worth fighting, and which ones are simply beneath even contempt, and should be given the consideration they are due. I.e., none.

3) The fact that the label "slut" was the one that enraged this man. Personally, I do not feel that consensual sexual behavior is anything to be ashamed over. I would be more amused by being labeled a slut, much the way I would be amused by being labeled a lesbian. As a feminist myself, I think the better way to handle slurs of this nature are to essentially take them back and remove their stigma, rather than offering to physically harm the person making the slur.

But hey, I am just a regular, garden-variety "atheist", what do I know about social justice?

If someone called my daughter a slut, I'd have a good laugh at their obvious ignorance- she still blushes when I compliment her mother's ass in her presence.

 

[chillzero]

No, it is an attack on the people who claim to be for social justice, and yet let comments like the one by this man slide. If my father ever offered violence in response to insults hurled in my direction, I would be appalled for several reasons:

1) Physical violence is an inappropriate response to this sort of taunt. There are many better ways to handle trolling by idiots on the Internet.

2) My father raised me to be capable not only of fighting my own battles, but to be capable of determining which battles are worth fighting, and which ones are simply beneath even contempt, and should be given the consideration they are due. I.e., none.

3) The fact that the label "slut" was the one that enraged this man. Personally, I do not feel that consensual sexual behavior is anything to be ashamed over. I would be more amused by being labeled a slut, much the way I would be amused by being labeled a lesbian. As a feminist myself, I think the better way to handle slurs of this nature are to essentially take them back and remove their stigma, rather than offering to physically harm the person making the slur.

But hey, I am just a regular, garden-variety "atheist", what do I know about social justice?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Does she post here?

An FTBer commissioned her to debate me on an IQ study I did awhile back. It was an interesting exchange. Haven't followed her much since then, but I got the impression the FTB kool aid wore off for her, and I wondered why...

If you follow her on Facebook, she's no fan of A+ or the FTBullies.

 

[westprog]

If someone called my daughter a slut, I'd have a good laugh at their obvious ignorance- she still blushes when I compliment her mother's ass in her presence.

That's not really the point, though. The man has, AFAIAA, nothing to do with this particular conflict. Somebody sought him out to insult his daughter. I think the fact that he stood by his daughter is entirely to be supported.

Every family is different, and different father daughter pairings will deal with such things in different ways. It's unfair to expect a father to conform to his daughter's principles, or vice versa - or to expect one to condemn the other where their principles differ. It would be holding someone to an absurdly high standard to expect them to publicly berate a family member for having different beliefs.

I recognise that intolerance of different behaviour and belief, leading to personal insult and exclusion, is a hallmark of A+, and precisely what people dislike about it. That's not a good reason to apply it back at them.

 

[Checkmite]

No, it is an attack on the people who claim to be for social justice, and yet let comments like the one by this man slide.

Like PZ, this man is not part of atheist plus, so why is atheist plus accountable for letting or not letting his comments "slide"? Why this insistence on holding them responsible for everything that everyone else besides them is saying?

Persons - allegedly reasonable, non-insulting levelheaded non-atheist-plus persons, mind - sought this man out to call his daughter a slut in order to get some reaction. Reaction gotten. Blame atheism plus for the reaction?

 

[Doubt]

Like PZ, this man is not part of atheist plus, so why is atheist plus accountable for letting or not letting his comments "slide"? Why this insistence on holding them responsible for everything that everyone else besides them is saying?

Persons - allegedly reasonable, non-insulting levelheaded non-atheist-plus persons, mind - sought this man out to call his daughter a slut in order to get some reaction. Reaction gotten. Blame atheism plus for the reaction?

Who claims to be or not be part of Atheism + ends up being a game. PZ claims to not be a part of it but is closely associated with the founders and they share a common outlook. They mutually classify all those that disagree with them in the same categories and the founders of A+ and he are all friends. They attack the same targets using the same tactics and rhetoric. If you heard or read any of the stuff that went on on FTB including the G+ meetups before TAM you would see that there is only a distinction without a difference between them. As for Whats-her-names father, I am inclined to give him a pass to the extent that he is trying to defend his kid. But not to the A+ crowd that refuses to distinguish between themselves when their would be allies say things that they should find objectionable.

 

[Piscivore]

That's not really the point, though. The man has, AFAIAA, nothing to do with this particular conflict. Somebody sought him out to insult his daughter. I think the fact that he stood by his daughter is entirely to be supported.

Every family is different, and different father daughter pairings will deal with such things in different ways. It's unfair to expect a father to conform to his daughter's principles, or vice versa - or to expect one to condemn the other where their principles differ. It would be holding someone to an absurdly high standard to expect them to publicly berate a family member for having different beliefs.

I recognise that intolerance of different behaviour and belief, leading to personal insult and exclusion, is a hallmark of A+, and precisely what people dislike about it. That's not a good reason to apply it back at them.

I wasn't making any judgment of that father or commenting on A+ at all with that, just saying something funny about my kid.

But for the record:
Resorting to crude insults because of a disagreement is vulgar and anti-rational, and implies one's position is vacuous and without merit.
Directing insuts at or making them to an uninvolved family member is despicable.
Reacting to insults with threats of violence, even if emotionally understandable, is also vulgar, serves only to escalate conflict, and is often exactly the sort of reaction the offending party wishes to incite. It helps them turn the disagreement away from supported arguments and reason to emotional mudwrestling, where evidence is replaced with invective.

 

[westprog]

Who claims to be or not be part of Atheism + ends up being a game. PZ claims to not be a part of it but is closely associated with the founders and they share a common outlook. They mutually classify all those that disagree with them in the same categories and the founders of A+ and he are all friends. They attack the same targets using the same tactics and rhetoric. If you heard or read any of the stuff that went on on FTB including the G+ meetups before TAM you would see that there is only a distinction without a difference between them. As for Whats-her-names father, I am inclined to give him a pass to the extent that he is trying to defend his kid. But not to the A+ crowd that refuses to distinguish between themselves when their would be allies say things that they should find objectionable.

I think it's reasonable that when a leading atheist posts an article saying what A+ is all about, that people take it that he has the right to say what A+ is all about. To be fair to Jan McReight, she did object to some of the things Carrier was saying.

 

[westprog]

I wasn't making any judgment of that father or commenting on A+ at all with that, just saying something funny about my kid.

Agreed.

But for the record:
Resorting to crude insults because of a disagreement is vulgar and anti-rational, and implies one's position is vacuous and without merit.
Directing insuts at or making them to an uninvolved family member is despicable.
Reacting to insults with threats of violence, even if emotionally understandable, is also vulgar, serves only to escalate conflict, and is often exactly the sort of reaction the offending party wishes to incite. It helps them turn the disagreement away from supported arguments and reason to emotional mudwrestling, where evidence is replaced with invective.

However, that's not a concern of anybody's family. I have no reason to suppose that the father in question has the slightest interest in the issues being discussed, in common with the vast majority of people, and wouldn't care about what his comments might do for the state of discussions among atheist activists.

Part of the problem with discussions on the internet is that people say things that they would be unwilling to say to somebody's face.

 

[Piscivore]

However, that's not a concern of anybody's family. I have no reason to suppose that the father in question has the slightest interest in the issues being discussed, in common with the vast majority of people, and wouldn't care about what his comments might do for the state of discussions among atheist activists.

Even outside the context of whatever precipitated the insult, reacting to insults with threats is just being a puppet of the offending party. That's the whole idea behind trolling- inciting an emotional reaction, the more extreme the better. That's the idea behind all insults. Getting the target to threaten violence is hitting the jackpot.

Part of the problem with discussions on the internet is that people say things that they would be unwilling to say to somebody's face.

Too true.

 

[WillyWonka]

However, that's not a concern of anybody's family. I have no reason to suppose that the father in question has the slightest interest in the issues being discussed, in common with the vast majority of people, and wouldn't care about what his comments might do for the state of discussions among atheist activists.

Part of the problem with discussions on the internet is that people say things that they would be unwilling to say to somebody's face.

Actually, to her benefit, McCreight tweeted that she was not too happy with her father's reaction. I think that she would have hoped that he had stayed away from this discussion.

This is becoming the Fox News of atheism; everything has becomed an hyperbole, on both sides: "I do not like Rebecca's comment on something; I am a rape-apologist. I question PZ's point of view, I am a douchebag. Someone does not like that Amy makes and sells A+ ceramics, she is an opportunist. Someone disagree with McCreight blog post, she is a slut, and so on. "

 

[Humes fork]

How long time before McCreight joins a progressive church of some sort and declares atheists the worst threat ever to women and minorities?

 

[RebeccaBradley]

Have to say, as a parent of grownup children (26 and 28) I have a lot of empathy for Jen Mc's dad. When I'm attacked or insulted, I can laugh it off, fight back, or ignore it; but attacks on or insults to my offspring actually bother me far more than when I'm the target myself. I would probably be tempted to leap to their defence, as he did - and they, in turn, would be embarrassed or annoyed at me for doing so, as Jen Mc was. I think it's pretty normal.

 

[westprog]

Even outside the context of whatever precipitated the insult, reacting to insults with threats is just being a puppet of the offending party. That's the whole idea behind trolling- inciting an emotional reaction, the more extreme the better. That's the idea behind all insults. Getting the target to threaten violence is hitting the jackpot.

But I don't think we should judge the dad on the same basis as people who start movements and make statements. He's just an innocent bystander, reacting - in this case, in an Aldrin-like manner.

 

[Piscivore]

But I don't think we should judge the dad on the same basis as people who start movements and make statements. He's just an innocent bystander, reacting - in this case, in an Aldrin-like manner.

I'm not. Neither, do I think, is Hokulele. She and I are both simply saying that "Physical violence is an inappropriate response to this sort of taunt"- which is, I have to say, of an entirely different sort than the one offered to Aldrin (his response to which I heartily approve). The insult leveled at Aldrin was of a calcultated, specific and personal nature to him; the one offered the father about his daughter was speculative, random, and obviously rectally produced.

This has nothing to do with the character of the man, who I'm sure is a fine, upstanding, good person who is just defending his little girl, as Rebecca Bradley above describes. As I said, it is despicable he was even brought into this. I'm simply stating that when the rabid sub-primates start flinging poo, getting mad and shaking one's fist at them is the incorrect response.