Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[westprog]

If he says he isn't part of atheist +, then atheist + shouldn't have to answer for anything he says, no matter how outrageous or illogical.

Does he say that? Hardly. He repudiates the leadership role.

If Myers and the other people putting forward the "with us or against us" position were outliers and mavericks, then it would be unfair to judge the movement as a whole, but their attitude seems to be replicated across the board. Not all the language is as intemperate, but intemperate language is not forbidden from the A+ official forum.

 

[Chris RN]

For a moment that simply wants to 'explicitly focus, not just on atheism, but on the intersections between atheism and racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and other social justice issues' there has been nothing but a S storm of name calling and making fun of it here. You don't like it, quit spending so much energy whining about it and get on with your lives already.

 

[Verklagekasper]

Somebody emails this guy calling his daughter a slut, which makes him upset and angry, and the fact that he got upset and angry is now a vector of attack against his daughter? What on Earth...?

Actually he wrote on his blog about hitting people calling his daughter a slut in the mouth. Then he got such a comment on his blog as a response. About which he felt like laughing (sic). That's how Jen told the story. But I guess facts ceased to matter in this trauma-fest long ago.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

For a moment that simply wants to 'explicitly focus, not just on atheism, but on the intersections between atheism and racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and other social justice issues' there has been nothing but a S storm of name calling and making fun of it here. You don't like it, quit spending so much energy whining about it and get on with your lives already.

Personally, I'm not whining about it, I'm laughing at it. There's a difference.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

I first really became aware of PZ through the whole cracker incident. I thought to myself "Wow! What a brave, thick-skinned individual, to take so much rage and invective from the religious!" I'm sure he got plenty of death-threats, and there were even attempts to get him fired. But he weathered it, and I thought he had an excellent point. The cracker only has spiritual significance to Catholics, and to us secular folks, it's just a cracker. We should be able to do whatever we want with it, including "desecration".

Now I see this same guy getting hurt over people on the Internet calling him names. WTF? He can dish it out, but he can't take it? If a host is just a cracker, isn't an email just an email? I'm sure what he did to that cracker upset a lot of Catholics, just like those emails are upsetting him. What's the big deal? Is it because it's from "fellow skeptics and atheists", and not the religious? Who cares who said what to you in an email, dude?

 

[Axiom_Blade]

For a moment that simply wants to 'explicitly focus, not just on atheism, but on the intersections between atheism and racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and other social justice issues' there has been nothing but a S storm of name calling and making fun of it here. You don't like it, quit spending so much energy whining about it and get on with your lives already.

Hey, Christianity is just a movement that wants to spread peace and love! We should quit spending so much energy whining about it, and get on with our lives, right?

 

[Piscivore]

For a moment that simply wants to 'explicitly focus, not just on atheism, but on the intersections between atheism and racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and other social justice issues' ...

If they left it at that, I'd say "good luck" to them. Instead, they are acting like every other fascist organization ever and are trying to purify atheism of those that disagree with anything they say- instead of addressing all those issues they say they care about.

 

[westprog]

I first really became aware of PZ through the whole cracker incident. I thought to myself "Wow! What a brave, thick-skinned individual, to take so much rage and invective from the religious!" I'm sure he got plenty of death-threats, and there were even attempts to get him fired. But he weathered it, and I thought he had an excellent point. The cracker only has spiritual significance to Catholics, and to us secular folks, it's just a cracker. We should be able to do whatever we want with it, including "desecration".

Now I see this same guy getting hurt over people on the Internet calling him names. WTF? He can dish it out, but he can't take it? If a host is just a cracker, isn't an email just an email? I'm sure what he did to that cracker upset a lot of Catholics, just like those emails are upsetting him. What's the big deal? Is it because it's from "fellow skeptics and atheists", and not the religious? Who cares who said what to you in an email, dude?

I'm somewhat pleased to see that my evaluation of PZM based on incidents such as that is now coming to be the default position. If I thought that he felt genuine empathy for the various people who've been insulted and harassed, I'd be more sympathetic, but it's fairly clear that what matters to him is being right in his own mind, and everything else is a long way behind. If someone is upset by someone he does or says, he doesn't care provided he can convince himself that they shouldn't be upset. Of course, this is the same justification used by the people sending the vicious emails - which is why PZM is part of the problem, not the solution.

 

[Mr. Scott]

Anyone besides me get the feeling that there's some false flag^WP actors in this dispute?

 

[Allecher]

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, Mr. Scott, but I have noticed that ever since the A+ crew has been distancing themselves from Secular Humanism I have been drawn closer to the writings at AmericanHumanist.org.

Perhaps this is all an elaborate reverse-psychology experiment?

 

[Acleron]

Hmm.

Here, Ronald Lindsay of CFI points out some useful common ground.

And here, PZ Myers strafes, bombs, and mines that common ground, sows it with salt, and takes off and nukes the site from orbit. All to thunderous applause, of course.

Disappointing but far from surprising at this point.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Freethoughtblogs is a focus of scorn

It is and it has gone too far to bother about the causes, whatever they are FTB is irretrievable. The bunker mentality has set in, FTB will not change and while it pushes the 'we are right and everybody else is wrong', with the associated invective, the push back from the rest of atheism will get stronger.

It's no use now saying that Carrier is an anomaly, or that PZ and Watson are not part of A+, they are firmly fixed in people's minds as the leaders.

This will leave a sour feeling in atheism for some time to come. I just hope that some lessons can be learned from it. I have clearly seen how intemperate language can stir up hatred in supposedly logical and skeptical folk. How such attitudes stir up a storm that ends up feeding on itself until everyone is exhausted.

 

[Mr. Scott]

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, Mr. Scott, but I have noticed that ever since the A+ crew has been distancing themselves from Secular Humanism I have been drawn closer to the writings at AmericanHumanist.org.

Perhaps this is all an elaborate reverse-psychology experiment?

I don't think it's an experiment. My antennae are out to detect the signals of, for example, religious fanatics pretending to be atheists so they can cause discord, doing things like telling an A+ leader's dad she's a slut. Sick fundies do things like that. It's hard to imagine such disgusting trolling by an atheist.

I also wonder if someone would infiltrate an atheist conference thinking that they'd find godless girls with no moral compass who are easy lays.

No smoking gun yet. Just keeping my eyes open.

 

[The Big Dog]

I don't think it's an experiment. My antennae are out to detect the signals of, for example, religious fanatics pretending to be atheists so they can cause discord, doing things like telling an A+ leader's dad she's a slut. Sick fundies do things like that. It's hard to imagine such disgusting trolling by an atheist.

I also wonder if someone would infiltrate an atheist conference thinking that they'd find godless girls with no moral compass who are easy lays.

No smoking gun yet. Just keeping my eyes open.

HA! Great post, you just buried my sarcasm meter.

 

[qayak]

I also wonder if someone would infiltrate an atheist conference thinking that they'd find godless girls with no moral compass who are easy lays.

... but, being godly, surly they wouldn't **** a heathen, would they?

 

[ShadowSot]

... but, being godly, surly they wouldn't **** a heathen, would they?

Ah, but perhaps their activities will lead them back to the light in some manner.

 

[westprog]

I don't think it's an experiment. My antennae are out to detect the signals of, for example, religious fanatics pretending to be atheists so they can cause discord, doing things like telling an A+ leader's dad she's a slut. Sick fundies do things like that. It's hard to imagine such disgusting trolling by an atheist.

I also wonder if someone would infiltrate an atheist conference thinking that they'd find godless girls with no moral compass who are easy lays.

No smoking gun yet. Just keeping my eyes open.

I know it's difficult to comprehend, but even atheists sometimes do bad things.

 

[devnull]

I know it's difficult to comprehend, but even atheists sometimes do bad things.

That's never been an argument. But once again it can be shown that bad is not being done *in the name of atheism*. These A+ people are acting with other motivators, very obviously.

 

[chillzero]

I think that might be the worst thing I've ever read from PZ. I can't believe he's talking about "sides". There are no "sides". The people making the threats, the people bombarding bloggers with misogynist invective, the people who are engaging in harassment and creepiness, they aren't a "side" in some imaginary battle. They are fringe actors, individuals, trolls, morons. This I think is the biggest mis-step in the whole A+ thing: They imagine themselves as embattled warriors forming a bulwark against a multitude of bigotry. In reality they are barking at shadows and alienating people who broadly agree with them.

He completely ignores (willfully, by his later comments) the point being made in that first link about defining exactly who constitutes the 'movement' that is supposedly being torn apart by all its own misogyny.

 

[squealpiggy]

I thought it was said that PZ is not a member of this atheist plus thing? If that's so then why are we treating anything he says as "policy"?

"I'm not saying I'm a member of Atheism +, but I'm definitely a member of Atheism +."

He along with Carrier, McReight, Watson et al have set themselves up at the forefront of what they consider to be a new movement. PZ and Carrier have set the tone. If PZ tomorrow said that A+ was a tool of the patriarchy and the new thing would be A& then the A+ crowd would disappear by sundown.

 

[Mr. Scott]

I know it's difficult to comprehend, but even atheists sometimes do bad things.

I've heard that for good people to do evil things ... that takes religion.