Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[BazBear]

You don't see run on sentences that long very often, but when you do it's a very good indicator that it's probably not worth reading.

 

[sts60]

Since FatFreddy88/DavidC/cosmored/rocky/etc. has been so busy dodging (as he is wont to do) questions about
his dishonesty in his Magic Sand claims, and avoiding the rebuttals thereto, and
the fact that according to his own criteria, he only pretends to mean what he says, and
rebuttals of his fantasy that we "have have no way of being sure" whether the South Atlantic Anomaly actually exists, and now
the fact that Voyager used the same space environmental data and models (including the structure of the Van Allen belts) as did the Apollo missions to the Moon¹,

...I thought we might as well have an interesting bit of reality to look at.

I did not know this, but the progress of the LRV on Apollo 16 and 17 was actually tracked (post-processed, I think, I'm still looking at the article²) by long-baseline interferometry from the ground, using tracking stations at Goldstone, Merrit Island, Ascension Island, and Madrid.

Hey, Madrid! Rocky, you said you live in Madrid. Here's the directions to the Madrid tracking station visitors' center. And here's a map - always happy to help you in your search for the truth.



1. Kase, Paul G. "The Radiation Environments of Outer-Planet Missions", Martin Marietta Aerospace, 1972.
2. Salzberg, Irving M. "Tracking the Apollo Lunar Rover with Interferometry Techniques", Proceedings of the IEEE, Vol. 61, No. 9, September 1973, pp. 1233-1236.

 

[JayUtah]

As a special effects cinematographer he was involved in shooting of more than 200 movies.

Interesting. Ray Harryhausen, one of the undisputed giants in the field this guy professes to work in, only managed one-tenth that output, over a longer career. Doug Trumbull, Stanley Kubrick's master of illusion, managed only a couple dozen films in his illustrious career. Richard Edlund, who -- as the executive producer of a commercial visual effects house -- gets to put his name on films he is associated with but never actually worked on, only managed 40.

No examples are given. I smell a padded resume.

...it looks like a movie production in a big pavilion with front projection

Asked and answered. Even Kubrick couldn't pull off black-sky space scenes using front projection.

...there is no reaction from the person sitting on the rover He works as if his wrist and elbow are fixed either to the body or to the rover...

Because he is holding the LRV's T-handle control stick. Mystery solved. He fails to describe why a radio-controlled model would necessarily produce the effects he notes. Non sequitur.

...It raises questions

Indeed, but as with all conspiracy theorists the questions are with the conspiracist's expectations. This eminent cinematographer simply begs the question of what he should expect.

In addition there are areas where differences between the foreground soil and the soil located in the background is very noticeable They are different both in color and texture from one another...

As real terrain is in real life.

These very doubts arose when we watched Kubrick’s movie 2001: A Space Odyssey In the movie as well there where differences between foreground and background and some inconsistency...

That studio technique works because it mimics an affect that occurs in real life: the occlusion of terrain by local maxima. Similar discontinuity is observed in real photographs taken of Earth terrain.

Most likely this footage was taken here on Earth under Earth’s gravity Changing the shooting speed accurately imitates conditions on the moon

No, that claim has been repeatedly tested and shown only to hold (and even then only subjectively) for brief, cherry-picked scenes.

 

[threadworm]

I did not know this, but the progress of the LRV on Apollo 16 and 17 was actually tracked (post-processed, I think, I'm still looking at the article²) by long-baseline interferometry from the ground, using tracking stations at Goldstone, Merrit Island, Ascension Island, and Madrid.


2. Salzberg, Irving M. "Tracking the Apollo Lunar Rover with Interferometry Techniques", Proceedings of the IEEE, Vol. 61, No. 9, September 1973, pp. 1233-1236.[/size]

I found an alternative reference:

http://www.pttimeeting.org/archivemeetings/1972papers/Vol%2004_09.pdf

Seems to imply live tracking?

 

[threadworm]

He works as if his wrist and elbow are fixed either to the body or to the rover

Don't suppose anyone bothered to point out to our Russian friend how the LRV was steered?

 

[Belz...]

That studio technique works because it mimics an affect that occurs in real life: the occlusion of terrain by local maxima. Similar discontinuity is observed in real photographs taken of Earth terrain.

Jay, please. The mere fact that "no stars in pictures" is even mentionned by the CTers shows that they have never held a camera in their hands, at least not at night. They have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Andy_Ross]

No, that claim has been repeatedly tested and shown only to hold (and even then only subjectively) for brief, cherry-picked scenes.

I think this is a result of their only ever seeing brief, cherry-picked scenes.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Don't suppose anyone bothered to point out to our Russian friend how the LRV was steered?

Or how restrictive the suits are.

 

[Peter May]

Did Youtube steal your punctuation ? Man, this is hard to read.

If I had written it I would agree with you. You can call me Peter if you like.

 

[nomuse]

Transcript of the Youtube video Lunar rover on the moon. Is it an RC model (Extended Edition)
Reproduced here verbatim by Peter May
Posted by moon fakery. Length 2min 22secs
Information about the subject
Vsevolod Yakubovich is a director of photography of the Mosfilm Studios. He teaches "Technology of the shooting process". He graduated from the All-Union State Cinema Institute (VGIK) in 1968. Currently he is an Associate Professor of VGIK Camera Department. As a special effects cinematographer he was involved in shooting of more than 200 movies.

I, as a trick photography cameraman think it was a doll on a radio controlled model it looks like a movie production in a big pavilion with front projection using a radio controlled model which mimics a rover running on the lunar surface What is cause for doubt? The camera is dangling on the rover It shows At the same time, there is no reaction from the person sitting on the rover He works as if his wrist and elbow are fixed either to the body or to the rover The camera is moving but the arm is not moving at all The notebook is moving although it’s not clear why the notebook should move But still it is moving and the arm is not It raises questions In addition there are areas where differences between the foreground soil and the soil located in the background is very noticeable They are different both in color and texture from one another These very doubts arose when we watched Kubrick’s movie 2001: A Space Odyssey In the movie as well there where differences between foreground and background and some inconsistency Most likely this footage was taken here on Earth under Earth’s gravity Changing the shooting speed accurately imitates conditions on the moon

Are either you or the Russian aware that the Lunar Rover famously had a side-stick controller? It was neither necessary for the driver to swing his arms about, or raise them above waist level. It could be -- it was -- operated mostly from the wrist.

 

[sts60]

I found an alternative reference:

http://www.pttimeeting.org/archivemeetings/1972papers/Vol%2004_09.pdf

Seems to imply live tracking?

Nice find. The article discussed results from Apollo 16 and mentioned planning for "near-real time" VLBI processing of Apollo 17 tracking data (within about 10 minutes).

Interesting stuff to talk about - more international observation of Apollo astronauts on the Moon - while waiting for FF88 to quit running away from accountability. Or perhaps poor dishonest, clueless Patrick1000/fattydash/DoctorTea/GraemeBird/ChrisENT/etc., etc., etc. to escape his ward attendants long enough to create a sock-puppet back here.

 

[abaddon]

Transcript of the Youtube video Lunar rover on the moon. Is it an RC model (Extended Edition)
Reproduced here verbatim by Peter May
Posted by moon fakery. Length 2min 22secs
Information about the subject
Vsevolod Yakubovich is a director of photography of the Mosfilm Studios. He teaches "Technology of the shooting process". He graduated from the All-Union State Cinema Institute (VGIK) in 1968. Currently he is an Associate Professor of VGIK Camera Department. As a special effects cinematographer he was involved in shooting of more than 200 movies.

I, as a trick photography cameraman think it was a doll on a radio controlled model it looks like a movie production in a big pavilion with front projection using a radio controlled model which mimics a rover running on the lunar surface What is cause for doubt? The camera is dangling on the rover It shows At the same time, there is no reaction from the person sitting on the rover He works as if his wrist and elbow are fixed either to the body or to the rover The camera is moving but the arm is not moving at all The notebook is moving although it’s not clear why the notebook should move But still it is moving and the arm is not It raises questions In addition there are areas where differences between the foreground soil and the soil located in the background is very noticeable They are different both in color and texture from one another These very doubts arose when we watched Kubrick’s movie 2001: A Space Odyssey In the movie as well there where differences between foreground and background and some inconsistency Most likely this footage was taken here on Earth under Earth’s gravity Changing the shooting speed accurately imitates conditions on the moon

Smelling a rat here. I suspect someone has made all this up.

Our pal, Vsevolod Yakubovich, appears nowhere, except CT sites, usually with the same exact text.

VGIK does not list him among their alumni, nor among their faculty.

Mosfilms is a specialist in recording music for movies. What on earth would they even do with a "director of photography"? They don't appear to even have any photographic facilities of any description.

 

[mercatormac]

Mosfilms is a specialist in recording music for movies. What on earth would they even do with a "director of photography"? They don't appear to even have any photographic facilities of any description.

I thought Mosfilm was a film studio. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosfilm

 

[Peter May]

Are either you or the Russian aware that the Lunar Rover famously had a side-stick controller? It was neither necessary for the driver to swing his arms about, or raise them above waist level. It could be -- it was -- operated mostly from the wrist.

I don't know what the Russian Vsevolod Yakubovich is aware of, I don't know him personally. Yes, as one who has studied the Apollo project I am aware of the side-stick controller. I watched the live TV the rover sent back in the early seventies.

 

[nomuse]

Wait a minute. Is he talking about the test drive of the Rover, or traverses after the Westinghouse was moved to its Rover mount?

The first requires coordinating the background to the set over camera moves -- non-trivial at the time, unless you use a distant painted backdrop.

The later would be ridiculous. There'd be no point in trying to stick a camera on a moving model, running that over a set, and trying to coordinate that with matching footage from some OTHER set.

 

[Peter May]

Smelling a rat here. I suspect someone has made all this up.

Our pal, Vsevolod Yakubovich, appears nowhere, except CT sites, usually with the same exact text.

VGIK does not list him among their alumni, nor among their faculty.

Mosfilms is a specialist in recording music for movies. What on earth would they even do with a "director of photography"? They don't appear to even have any photographic facilities of any description.

It is a film company, I can't send the URL but if you copy the title below it will work.
The Official Communicatory Portal of Mosfilm Cinema Concern

 

[R.A.F.]

The problem doesn't appear to be that he's uninterested in debate. It appears to be that he will debate only on his terms -- where he gets to control what is said from both sides.

That's not a debate, that's a lecture.

 

[R.A.F.]

Reproduced here verbatim by Peter May

Why??


Why do you feel the need to reproduce this garbage here? It certainly adds no meaningful information to this discussion...

 

[R.A.F.]

I don't know what the Russian Vsevolod Yakubovich is aware of, I don't know him personally.

Well, that's understandable since there is no credible evidence that he even exists.

 

[abaddon]

It is a film company, I can't send the URL but if you copy the title below it will work.
The Official Communicatory Portal of Mosfilm Cinema Concern

I see. Then who is this?

And why have they done all of this?

According to your link, the supplied address does not exist on google maps, although the street does. In fact, your supposed 1200 employees somehow fit into a bedsit in a Moscow slum.

How likely do you think that is?