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European Migration Patterns

Moss

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Inspired by a "Cro Magnon was soooooo awesome" thread I've lately tried to read up on the different historical migration waves into Europe and how different populations were replaced, shifted and went the way of the dodo for one reason or another.
In the back of my mind I still have the idea that the Basques are members of the oldest people that could be termed European, but how accurate is that view?
And how does the Kurgan hypothesis fit in? Do the people that spread according to it replaces the older inhabitants of Europe or did they mingle? Inquiring Moss likes to know.
 
Never try to argue this with a Basque.
Do so and you will find out why they have survived so long.
 
Soapy Sam said:
Never try to argue this with a Basque.
Do so and you will find out why they have survived so long.
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That reminds me of the trivia I heard recently: that Basque mercenaries were among the most feared during the Hundred Years War.
 
Well the Basque are definitely a left over from something. The Basque language is an enigma within itself, apparently pre-dating all other languages in the European family. IIRC also there is a theory the Basque may even be very closely related to Cro-magnon.
 
Fine people, but like a lot of people squeezed between two larger neighbours, they are a shade touchy about their identity. They have certainly been around a long time as a group, but then, we all have, one way or another.
 
MG1962 said:
Well the Basque are definitely a left over from something. The Basque language is an enigma within itself, apparently pre-dating all other languages in the European family. IIRC also there is a theory the Basque may even be very closely related to Cro-magnon.
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I read somewhere some time ago that there are similarities between Basque and Georgian, another isolated language. Doe anyone know if this is so?

In my youth, migration out of the Russian steppes was popular, the Celts being one group that supposedly pushed earlier inhabitants to one side as they made their way from the steppes to western Europe. However, Marduk pointed out to me that archaeology shows a spread of Celtic culture from central Europe (just north of the Alps IIRC) east and west.

The British Isles, as far as I know, is still seen as having native populations overwhelmed by successive migrations from the continent. Beyond that, I'm unsure how the theory of successive waves of invaders from the steppes populating Europe stands at present.

ETA: According to this site, Cro-Magnon DNA is still common in Europe today. Heres a quote from the article (emphasis added):

The Paglicci 23 individual carried a mtDNA sequence that is still common in Europe, and which radically differs from those of the almost contemporary Neandertals, demonstrating a genealogical continuity across 28,000 years, from Cro-Magnoid to modern Europeans. Because all potential sources of modern DNA contamination are known, the Paglicci 23 sample will offer a unique opportunity to get insight for the first time into the nuclear genes of early modern Europeans.

Thus, it would seem that the Cro-Magnons were not so thoroughly displaced by later invaders. On the other hand, Basque DNA seems as isolate as the Basque language.
 
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Moss said:
Inspired by a "Cro Magnon was soooooo awesome" thread I've lately tried to read up on the different historical migration waves into Europe and how different populations were replaced, shifted and went the way of the dodo for one reason or another.
In the back of my mind I still have the idea that the Basques are members of the oldest people that could be termed European, but how accurate is that view?
And how does the Kurgan hypothesis fit in? Do the people that spread according to it replaces the older inhabitants of Europe or did they mingle? Inquiring Moss likes to know.
Click to expand...

Are you attempting to prove modern Europeans did not descend from Cro-Magnon man but came from Africa?
 
MaGZ said:
Are you attempting to prove modern Europeans did not descend from Cro-Magnon man but came from Africa?
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That's a rather ignorant thing to say, considering the fact that you've yet to present any evidence supporting the notion that Cro-Magnon were anything but modern humans. This is akin to saying I'm not related to my sister, but only to my parents. :boggled:
 
Dinwar said:
That's a rather ignorant thing to say, considering the fact that you've yet to present any evidence supporting the notion that Cro-Magnon were anything but modern humans. This is akin to saying I'm not related to my sister, but only to my parents. :boggled:
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Are you suggesting various races of mankind, Asian, Black, anything other than European descended from Cro-Magnon?
 
MaGZ said:
Are you suggesting various races of mankind, Asian, Black, anything other than European descended from Cro-Magnon?
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I'm suggesting that you don't know enough to discuss evolutionary biology rationally.
 
MaGZ said:
Are you attempting to prove modern Europeans did not descend from Cro-Magnon man but came from Africa?
Click to expand...

MaGZ said:
Are you attempting to prove modern Europeans did not descend from Cro-Magnon man but came from Africa?]
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You have this annoying habit of asking, with an air incredulity, if someone is arguing some stance that would only occur to you to start with (strawman fallacy), and doesn't make any sense (ignorance/lunacy).
 
MaGZ said:
Are you attempting to prove modern Europeans did not descend from Cro-Magnon man but came from Africa?
Click to expand...


That is one of the questions I want to ascertain. Because I have not yet found evidence that the current population of Europe is actually descended from those people or their relatives.
That seems to be one of those things white supremacists constantly miss: Living in the same place as people that have come before does not in any way imply that you are actually their descendants or that there is some cultural link.

ETA: okay, I just saw TimCallahan's post above yours. That seems pretty conclusive. Though I'm not exactly sure why the Pagliacci 23 individual is called a Cro Magnon. Similar cultural artefacts and art found in situ?
 
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Moss said:
... Though I'm not exactly sure why the Pagliacci 23 individual is called a Cro Magnon. ...
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One notices you've never worked with opera singers...

Anyway, here's the best of the best:


 
pakeha said:
One notices you've never worked with opera singers...

Anyway, here's the best of the best:


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:D That's got to be one of the funniest misreadings I ever had. And I wondered why that seemed so familiar.
 
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