Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

[jadebox]

Just a question here (I have no doubt that the bc is authentic): Did the White House have to scan the document and create a PDF to put it on the web? Could they have just put up a photograph? Or would a digital photograph be the equivalent of a scan? Suppose they took a photograph with a film camera? Could something have been put up without creating all these "layering" issues?

Just to expand a bit on what Jay said ... it's not surprising that someone in the government would scan a document into PDF format rather than as a simple image. The PDF format is commonly used in government and business settings because it offers advantages over pure image formats like JPG, GIF, or TIF.

PDFs are designed to capture both the information and the appearance of documents. A document printed or viewed from a PDF file should look almost the same wherever it is printed or displayed.

Another advantage is that the textural information from the document is searchable when it is stored as a PDF. If you scanned a receipt into a JPG image file, for example, you wouldn't be able to search for it in your computer by entering some of the text displayed on the reciept. PDF scanning software, on the other hand, tries to interpret the content of the document as it is scanned. So, if you scanned a receipt using PDF software, you should be able to find it using the name of the store or other information displayed on receipt.

The PDF file format is designed to support both of the things I just described - displaying the document as it originally looked and capturing information from it as text. Plus, the scanning software tries to keep the file size as small as possible. To meet these goals the document is scanned into multiple layers or objects or whatever.

At the lowest level, the scanning software stores as much of the information from the document as it can as text. It uses OCR technology to figure out what letters are displayed and what font is used. It stores this information as text because test takes less memory than storing images and text can be easily indexed for searching.

On top of the captured text, the PDF file contains graphics - images representing non-text parts of the documents; text that it couldn't decipher; and images of some of the text that it did decipher but wouldn't be easy to reproduce for printing or display.

PDF viewing or printing software takes the text, renders it using embedded fonts and other information, then adds the stuff captured as images to reproduce the original document.

The PDF format (and others like it) are really cool because they allow exisitng printed documents to be stored digitally, indexed, and searched then displayed or printed without losing the look of the original document.

-- Roger

 

[Bob001]

No. There is no requirement that candidates for President present their birthplace credentials at all to the public at large.

Of course there's no legal (or even a traditional) requirement for displaying a bc; what I was asking was whether it was necessary to create a pdf in order to post it on the web site, or would some other mechanism have been available? It sounds like, yes, it could have been done differently, and no, the birthers would never be satisfied.

 

[jadebox]

And this only prompts the Birthers now to accuse Hawaii state officials of lying. It will never end.

I know ....

But, it seems that we are too quick to let them ...I mean him ... pull us away from that central point. He's leading us around with the silly stuff about the PDF file and all that. He know's that it's not relevant, but it keeps him feeling that he is in control when we keep responding to side tracks like that.

-- Roger

 

[Ladewig]

Or, I dunno, just ignore him?

So Robert Prey has folks responding to every one of his posts and your post is ignored.

Usually, I like the taste of irony, but today it is far too bitter for me to happily swallow.

 

[Garrison]

I know you said plausible narrative, but there's always this charmer: "Did Barack Obama Campaign Threaten Life of Chelsea Clinton to Keep Parents Silent on Obama’s Ineligibility?"

So how does this guy think he silenced McCain, Palin, Romney, Fox News, and the myriad of foreign news agencies who would have jumped all over it if it were true?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Robert's answer is that everyone except the Birthers is "brainwashed."

I thought his answer was "One question at a time, please."

Dave

 

[EventHorizon]

I thought his answer was "One question at a time, please."

Dave

Baloney.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Baloney.

That's not his answer to inconvenient questions, it's his unanswerable refutation of contradictory evidence.

Dave

 

[Robert Prey]

Hawaii state officials have certified that the information shown on the scanned birth certificate matches what they have on file. So, it doesn't matter what layers or objects or whatever are in the PDF file.

-- Roger

Oh, but it does matter. Information is one thing and may have been added or substituted at a later date, but the State has refused to confirm that the BC copy is really a copy of the original. Now why would the state refuse to make such a confirmation? The answer is too obvious.

 

[Robert Prey]

No. There is no requirement that candidates for President present their birthplace credentials at all to the public at large. The public's interest in validating candidates for office is represented by duly sworn election commissions, who have the statutory authority to act as notaries for such applications.



There are no "layers" in a PDF file. That's inappropriate terminology. There are only objects, contained as a flat list of versioned descriptors, some of which contain displayable elements and others of which implement the document structure. Romney's birth certificate in PDF form supplied by Reuters, for example, contains eight objects.

Could the PDF have been "flattened" (i.e., reduced to the minimum number of objects)? Yes, certainly, using easily available tools. Could the scanned document have been released in a different (simpler) format? Yes, without difficulty. The Birther conspiracy theory requires the alleged forgers to be uncommonly inept, and to leave "blatant" evidence of forgery for them to find.

Would this solve the problem? Of course not. The Birthers made the mistake of going on to question other aspects of Obama's eligibility, with equally inept and disastrous results. Further, they went on to try to analyze other images released from the White House, attempting to detect forgeries. The problem with the Birther claims is not that the certificate could have been release in a less problematic format. The problem is that the Birthers are demonstrably clueless, and clearly motivated only by politics.

The problem with the anti-Birthers is that in attempting to denigrate legitimate questions as to the veracity of the COLB, they have not been able to produce a scintilla of evidence that would prove the document's validity,clearly motivated only by politics.

 

[Robert Prey]

It's the standard runaround, whether it's being offered from the conspiracy-theory vantage point or the troll vantage point: the goal in each case is to keep the discussion going around in circles and/or mired in minutia, with no resolution.



And I've said as much on many occasions, but Robert simply writes it off as too simplistic an answer.

The answer is simple. There is no legal basis to challenge further the authenticity of the birth certificate. Hawaii has certified by the Constitutionally-provided method that Barack Obama was born in that state. Further attempts to challenge that certification violate, not sustain the Constitution.

Sure, Robert wants to write that all off as pure legalism that dodges the real question. But the "real" question (i.e., is the birth certificate authentic as a matter of fact?) matters only if there's an eventual legal peg to hang it on, that would result in a meaningful question to Obama's eligibility. The certification stands in lieu of any evidentiary challenge, so that's that -- it exists so that there won't be a need to investigate the question from an evidentiary standpoint. We rely on evidence and judgment when the question must be answered that way, when no better way exists. When the law can circumvent such examinations, it does -- such as by stipulation and certification.

In good faith, and out of an abundance of charity, we examine the authenticity question from a purely evidentiary standpoint. And when we do, we see the same sort of smoke and mirrors we get in every other kind of conspiracy theory: "expert" opinions from non-experts, rhetorical games, sensationalism, shifting goalposts. There is a very good reason the evidence allegedly for forgery doesn't even come close to meeting a legally significant standard of proof.

The Birthers want to unseat the duly elected holder of the highest office in the land. They had better have some pretty strong evidence. But they don't; they just place their speculative hopes in the next incremental iteration of the demand for exculpatory evidence.



Indeed as is expected in American politics, the GOP has expended effort to hinder the success of the rival party. And the supporters of that party expect its leaders to make good use of the resources they contribute, in the hope of gaining political power. If there is a legitimate reason to unseat the current administration, why would that not be pursued?

Robert's answer is that everyone except the Birthers is "brainwashed." There you have it.

Nonsense. The GOP knows very well that the pursuit of what might prove to be High Treason by the President of the United States at the same time would be political suicide for the GOP.

 

[Amazer]

Nonsense. The GOP knows very well that the pursuit of what might prove to be High Treason by the President of the United States at the same time would be political suicide for the GOP.

Your party would let politics decide which principles they adhere to and which ones they discard? That is rather sad, especially for something as huge as High Treason.

 

[Robert Prey]

Event horizon has hit the nail on the head Obama's political opponents would have used it against him to get him debarred from the nominations and the election if any of this nonsesne was true, and becasue it is not true and is arrant nonesense they have not.

More nonsense. In politics, as in life, truth is not what is, but what people perceive is. You could have a majority of Congress and nine Supreme Court justices come down against The Anointed One, but if O really was ever impeached or deposed over this, American's cities would burn to the ground just as they did after the assassination of MLK,

 

[JayUtah]

The problem with the anti-Birthers is that in attempting to denigrate legitimate questions as to the veracity of the COLB, they have not been able to produce a scintilla of evidence that would prove the document's validity...

Asked and answered.

You once accepted the burden to prove it was forged, as you claim. The Birthers who fight this battle in court know they have such a burden. Why did you suddenly change your mind?

 

[JayUtah]

You could have a majority of Congress and nine Supreme Court justices come down against The Anointed One, but if O really was ever impeached or deposed over this, American's cities would burn to the ground just as they did after the assassination of MLK,

Meaningless speculation -- your excuse for why you can't supply the evidence you know you need.

 

[RandFan]

Nonsense. The GOP knows very well that the pursuit of what might prove to be High Treason by the President of the United States at the same time would be political suicide for the GOP.

Ad hoc rationalization. There is no reason whatsoever to think it would be political suicide. That's just asserted.

 

[JayUtah]

Nonsense. The GOP knows very well that the pursuit of what might prove to be High Treason by the President of the United States at the same time would be political suicide for the GOP.

Meaningless speculation. You have no legal case, and you have no evidentiary case. I've presented what everyone except you considers to be an effective rebuttal to your regurgitation of the Birther forgery claims. You are obviously not equipped to argue on the merits, so you're trying to speculate up some new reasons why your irrational beliefs are not widely believed.

 

[Robrob]

The problem with the anti-Birthers is that in attempting to denigrate legitimate questions as to the veracity of the COLB, they have not been able to produce a scintilla of evidence that would prove the document's validity,clearly motivated only by politics.

Horse poop. All the documents you have asked for have been produced. It's your burden to disprove them.

Nonsense. The GOP knows very well that the pursuit of what might prove to be High Treason by the President of the United States at the same time would be political suicide for the GOP.

Horse poop. The GOP would gleefully love to impeach a Democratic President. They spent nearly 8 years and $40 million going after the last one.

Your arguments are completely contradictory to reality.

 

[Ranb]

.......... American's cities would burn to the ground just as they did after the assassination of MLK,

Since no American city ever burned to the ground after MLK died you are claiming the USA would react calmly to Obama being removed from office? If not then this claim makes as much sense as your others.

Ranb

 

[Ranb]

Nonsense. The GOP knows very well that the pursuit of what might prove to be High Treason by the President of the United States at the same time would be political suicide for the GOP.

It looks like you are claiming Obama is actually a US citizen, and since you have not produced any evidence of naturalization you are probably admitting that he is natural born since aliens cannot commit treason against the United States.

Ranb