Are the crucifixion nails of Jesus in Europe?

[Craig B]

Great find, svenax.

Although I find this one looking much more like a modern bit (bridle's metal mouthpiece) than a nail. Which nail was supposed to be the bridle, again?

See my post #14. I'm glad I got that right. Constantine's first soldierly instinct seems to have been to put these holy things to military use.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

20120901.0630

@Warrior1461, #121

You mentioned that the nails used when Jesus was crucified are in Rome, Vienna, Monza, Trier, Milan, Carpentras, and Siena. Yes, there are more than four. Why not in other places, such as Madrid, Venice, Athens, Cyprus, Pamphylia, Macedonia, Cilicia, Malta, Sicily, Crete, or Britannia?

Why did you pick those other places and where is Britannia?

Otoh it makes even less sense to use the term Pamphylia today.

20120901.0220

@Nessie, #196
@svenax, #201

Pamphylia and Cilicia are in present-day Turkey, Asian part. Britannia is the ancient term for Great Britain.

Why are the nails not found in such places in Europe that I mentioned? They are found in places that are in the book “Pasiong Mahal” – Milan, Carpentras, and Rome. Not in Paris though. Why? Forgotten?

“Pasiong Mahal” says that the nail in Rome was mixed with the diadem of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Is this the Iron Crown of Lombardy in the Cathedral of Monza?

How can we know which of the nails are authentic and which are forgeries?

I will cite other things that are in the book and translate them to English. I will cite also what Ama said.

 

[Ausmerican]

Constantine's mom ran all over the place finding relics. Seems she could not go any place and not find something important. Gullible under any definition.

And finally retired to a nice 20 room mansion she had built with all of the excess 'Pieces of the True Cross' and 'Nails That Crucified Jesus' with an Olympic sized pool filled with all of 'The Collected Last Tear of Christ'.

 

[pakeha]

Since my Google-fu is at a high right now, here is the nail in the cathedral of Saint Siffrein in Carpentras.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Mors_(Carpentras) (click on the image for a larger version)

It looks even less like a nail than the one in Milan - which also claims to be the same nail as the one in Carpentras.

Great find!
More Dom for all!

I notice PC's false medium missed big time with the Milan/Carpentras confusion and PC hasn't reacted to that yet.

See my post #14. I'm glad I got that right. Constantine's first soldierly instinct seems to have been to put these holy things to military use.

Yes. Supernatural protection for the military is always a priority.

Are you saying that Ka Apaz is the ‘living prophet’ faking a spirit called Ama? ...

I don't know about ‘living prophet’, but faking, absolutely yes.

 

[svenax]

Pamphylia and Cilicia are in present-day Turkey, Asian part. Britannia is the ancient term for Great Britain.

Why, yes we know that. But why are you using the ancient names when referring to present-day places?

Incidentally, the present day town and major tourist location of Antalya is located in what once was Pamphylia. I'm sure you still can buy nails from the holy cross there, for the right price of course.

Why are the nails not found in such places in Europe that I mentioned? They are found in places that are in the book “Pasiong Mahal” – Milan, Carpentras, and Rome. Not in Paris though. Why? Forgotten?

What a strange question. The so-called relics are found in the places where they are kept and nowhere else. Is this not obvious? And it is certainly no secret where they were, so the author of Paisong Mahal would have known that too without any difficulty.

“Pasiong Mahal” says that the nail in Rome was mixed with the diadem of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Is this the Iron Crown of Lombardy in the Cathedral of Monza?

Yes, no doubt. So the author got Rome and Monza mixed up ...

How can we know which of the nails are authentic and which are forgeries?

That is easy. They are all forgeries.

I will cite other things that are in the book and translate them to English. I will cite also what Ama said.

Sure. Knock yourself out.

 

[svenax]

When looking for the history of the nail formerly at Saint Denis, I found this comment about the crown in Monza:

There is also the ninth century so-called Iron crown at Monza, which may give us some idea of what Charlemagne's crown may have been like. The Iron crown probably belonged to Berengar and was made to be worn. It consists of six curved gold plates hinged together, and the only use of the hinging must have been to enable the circlet to fit a human head. The iron ring is, I think, obviously an addition, made to hold the plates rigidly in a circular form when the crown was dedicated to be hung over an altar and no longer needed to be flexible. The gold crown, in fact, was the original thing and the iron ring was a purely subordinate feature added later for practical purposes.

It was only afterwards that the idea occurred to some genius, who observed the iron ring and not the necessity for it, that the gold and jeweled crown was a mere decoration and setting for the iron ring, which therefore he concluded must have been an exceedingly precious relic, ergo one of the crucifixion nails. A little consideration will show that if the iron ring had been the original feature, no one would have made a decoration for it out of hinged plates, for the hinges would have been both a useless and even a troublesome feature. Nothing, in fact, is less like a decorative addition to a ring of iron than these gold and jewelled plates, which obviously were intended for no such purpose. The iron ring exists to support them, not they to decorate it.

From "The Treasures of Saint Denis - The Abbey of Saint-Denis and its Ancient Treasures" by Sir W. MARTIN CONWAY, F.S.A., 1915.

The Wikipedia article on the crown has an image which clearly shows the iron band allegedly made from one of the nails of the crucifixion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Crown_of_Lombardy

 

[tsig]

I'm confused, tsig.
My standard source for information didn't mention the nails.
http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/genesis.html#.UEGsXSIXLMx

Not directly but they are talking numbers and we are talking numbers so by biblical reasoning we can conclude that they're talking about the same thing.

 

[The Norseman]

How can we know which of the nails are authentic and which are forgeries?

Ask Jesus. He might know.

 

[pakeha]

I have seen the Holy Lance containing a nail and Reliquary with part of the cross with a nail hole in it that is at the Schatzkammer in Vienna.

http://www.visitingvienna.com/sights/museums/schatzkammer/

But they also claim to have a unicorn's horn, so I was suspicious.

Skepticism at it's finest.
More Dom for all!

...How can we know which of the nails are authentic and which are forgeries?...

What makes you think any of these nails are authentic, PC?
I ask in all seriousness and with due respect.

The manufacture and sale of 'relics' was quite an industry, you know.

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/archive/permalink/the_medieval_relic_trade/
http://www.answers.com/topic/relic

 

[MRC_Hans]

20120901.0320

@svenax, #172

This is what is in the book “Awit at Salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal” first published in 1884 on page 204:

“At ito ring pakong mahal
ang sa dagat binitiwan
ang nasa Paris na bayan,
sa Templong lubhang mainam
ni San Dionisiong banal.”

English translation:
“And this is also the beloved nail
that was dropped into the sea
which is in the town of Paris,
in a Temple that is good
for the holy Saint Dionysius.”

From Wikipedia, Saint Denis (also called Dionysius, Dennis, or Denys) was the Bishop of Paris in the third century AD. He is the patron of Paris, France. The medieval and modern French name “Denis” derives from the ancient name Dionysius.

There is in Paris called the Saint Denis Basilica which became the burial place for the kings of France.

And so what?

Hans

 

[PeaceCrusader]

And so what?

Hans

20120904.0605

@MRC Hans, #210

“Pasiong Mahal” states that there was a Saint Denis (also called in ancient time Dionysius) in Paris, France. A Basilica was erected there in his honor which became the burial place for the kings of France. Just think, why the kings of France have to be buried here.

Should the Basilica search for this nail? The book is correct in stating at least two places – Carpentras, France and Milan, Italy. The one in Rome may be a forgery because, first, it is not “octobado” and second, it is not as stated that Saint Helena mixed the nail to make a crown.

 

[svenax]

20120904.0605

@MRC Hans, #210

“Pasiong Mahal” states that there was a Saint Denis (also called in ancient time Dionysius) in Paris, France. A Basilica was erected there in his honor which became the burial place for the kings of France. Just think, why the kings of France have to be buried here.

Should the Basilica search for this nail? The book is correct in stating at least two places – Carpentras, France and Milan, Italy. The one in Rome may be a forgery because, first, it is not “octobado” and second, it is not as stated that Saint Helena mixed the nail to make a crown.

PC, the Pasiong Mahal is a devotional poem and does not (as far as I understand) make any claims to being divinely inspired or anything. So why are you clinging so much to what it says?

 

[George 152]

Great find!
More Dom for all!

I notice PC's false medium missed big time with the Milan/Carpentras confusion and PC hasn't reacted to that yet.



Yes. Supernatural protection for the military is always a priority.



I don't know about ‘living prophet’, but faking, absolutely yes.

It's spelt 'profit'

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Skepticism at it's finest.
More Dom for all!


What makes you think any of these nails are authentic, PC?
I ask in all seriousness and with due respect.

The manufacture and sale of 'relics' was quite an industry, you know.

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/archive/permalink/the_medieval_relic_trade/
http://www.answers.com/topic/relic

20120904.0630

@pakeha, #209

Some of the nails claimed to be authentic by different churches may be forgeries. There are only four nails used in nailing the hands and feet of Jesus to the cross. So there could not be more than four.

How can be know the authentic ones? First, the spirit of Ama said that they are “octobado”, eight-sided. I will look for the recording where he said about the nails being “octobado”. I think not all of them are “octobado” because one of them was mixed with the diadem of the Roman Emperor Constantine. I do not know how much was mixed. It may be the whole nail or a portion of the nail. Second, we have a list of places in the book “Pasiong Mahal” where they are – Carpentras, France; Milan, Italy; Rome, Italy; and Paris, France. Carpentras may be Karpentas before. As far as I can remember, Ama confirmed these place. It will be best if we could hear the recording.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

20120826.1145

A spirit revealed that four nails were used for the hands and feet of Jesus when He was crucified. The nails were eight-sided, “octobado”. They had been retrieved from Jerusalem by Saint Helena, the mother of Emperor Constantine. It is incredible because the nails made of steel floated on the water and were brought to different places – Karpentas, Rome, Milan, and Paris.

Do I believe this? The story is also found at “Awit at salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal” (in Filipino) read and sang during Holy Week in the Philippines. Any comments?

40 acres and a mule

Aren't the crucifixion nails still in Jesus?

 

[pakeha]

20120904.0605

@MRC Hans, #210

“Pasiong Mahal” states that there was a Saint Denis (also called in ancient time Dionysius) in Paris, France. A Basilica was erected there in his honor which became the burial place for the kings of France. Just think, why the kings of France have to be buried here.

Should the Basilica search for this nail? The book is correct in stating at least two places – Carpentras, France and Milan, Italy. The one in Rome may be a forgery because, first, it is not “octobado” and second, it is not as stated that Saint Helena mixed the nail to make a crown.

PC, hasn't it sunk in that the relics in Carpentras and Milan claim to be the same nail?
The "Pasiong" got it wrong, listing two different relics both claiming to be the nail worked into a bit or bridle. If Ka Apaz has set her seal of approval on this confusion, it merely shows she's a false medium.
What is so difficult to understand there?

We can take the “octobado” aspect of the authentic relics almost as seriously as the tale of St Evangeline or the wedding day of Reneliniyindi.

It's spelt 'profit'

Naughty!
A round of Dom for all!

...
Some of the nails claimed to be authentic by different churches may be forgeries. There are only four nails used in nailing the hands and feet of Jesus to the cross. So there could not be more than four.

How can be know the authentic ones? First, the spirit of Ama said that they are “octobado”, eight-sided. I will look for the recording where he said about the nails being “octobado”. I think not all of them are “octobado” because one of them was mixed with the diadem of the Roman Emperor Constantine. I do not know how much was mixed. It may be the whole nail or a portion of the nail.

Whatever Ka Apaz said about the shape of the nails found by Helene, is there any evidence the Romans made 8-sided nails?

Second, we have a list of places in the book “Pasiong Mahal” where they are – Carpentras, France; Milan, Italy; Rome, Italy; and Paris, France. Carpentras may be Karpentas before. As far as I can remember, Ama confirmed these place. It will be best if we could hear the recording.

PC, that list of places is mistaken. Carpentras and Milan house relics that both claim to be the same nail fashioned into the Emperor's bridle.
Do you understand that?
Yes, please post up the recording that shows Ka Apaz confirming those places. I'd like to hear them.

 

[hurdygurdy]

PC, hasn't it sunk in that the relics in Carpentras and Milan claim to be the same nail?
The "Pasiong" got it wrong, listing two different relics both claiming to be the nail worked into a bit or bridle. If Ka Apaz has set her seal of approval on this confusion, it merely shows she's a false medium.
What is so difficult to understand there?

We can take the “octobado” aspect of the authentic relics almost as seriously as the tale of St Evangeline or the wedding day of Reneliniyindi.




Naughty!
A round of Dom for all!



Whatever Ka Apaz said about the shape of the nails found by Helene, is there any evidence the Romans made 8-sided nails?



PC, that list of places is mistaken. Carpentras and Milan house relics that both claim to be the same nail fashioned into the Emperor's bridle.
Do you understand that?
Yes, please post up the recording that shows Ka Apaz confirming those places. I'd like to hear them.

I prophesy that PC will only comprehend the last line of your reply.

We will wait and see.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

PC, the Pasiong Mahal is a devotional poem and does not (as far as I understand) make any claims to being divinely inspired or anything. So why are you clinging so much to what it says?

20120904.0720

@svenax, #212

Ama said that the “Pasiong Mahal” was taken from the Holy Bible. There are 213 pages of poem, five lines, and even rhyming. Also, there maybe Latin words, not Filipino words, which an ordinary person may not know. For example, “Sedes Sapientiae, Tronor, Dominaciones, Virtudes at Potestades, Qualis Paper, talis Filius, talis Espiritus Sanctus, Mulier, quam dedisti mihi, dedit mihi de ligno et comedi, Et erat subditus illis, Haec omnia tibi dabo si cadens adoraveris me, Ecce Agus Dei Qui tollis peccata mundi, Sicut ovisad occisionem ducetur et quasi agnus tondente, se obmutescet, et non apariet os sunm”, etc.

There are some details which are not found in the Bible. Examples are the names of the cities where the nails are now, Emperor Constantine, Saint Helena, who John is at the crucifixion of Jesus, the parents of the Blessed Virgin Mary, etc.

Most of what is in the book are about the crucifixion and death of Jesus.

 

[AdMan]

Regarding octobado, where does this word come from, PC? Is it Filipino?

I get the "octo" bit, but googling the whole word only yields PC's posts.

What language is it in?

 

[Hokulele]

Should the Basilica search for this nail? The book is correct in stating at least two places – Carpentras, France and Milan, Italy. The one in Rome may be a forgery because, first, it is not “octobado” and second, it is not as stated that Saint Helena mixed the nail to make a crown.

Wait, so if it's not "octobado", it may be a forgery rather than Ka Apaz may have been wrong?

PeaceCrusader, you have just made it quite clear why everything you write can be seen as horrendously biased, and why it is obvious that every single one of your claims are now unfalsifiable, and hence useless on a forum dedicated to critical thinking.

Bravo.