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What counts as a historical Jesus?

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Hmm, naturally I disagree with virtually everything the Jesus Seminar have to say but I am happy to see they see my point of view here! :)

But the broader point is that I'm not pushing some sort of weird esoteric line. Lots of sensible people view the gospel records in this way, that's the point. Me, the Jesus Seminar, E Sanders, Maurice Casey, etc...:)
 
By the way, if the idea of psychosomatic blindness is really too much to stomach, one other way that traditional healers could treat blindness was by couching. This essentially involves pushing cataracts out of people's eyes. As you can imagine, the typical outcomes were (and are, as it is still practiced) "abysmal" (as Wikipedia puts it) but, hey.
 
The problem is that there is not even any genuine (ie credible, independent and verifiable) evidence (let alone anything remotely like "proof") of a historical Jesus.

The gospels are not, and never could be genuine evidence, because they are anonymous devotional accounts written centuries after the reported events by unknown authors who had never met, seen or heard anyone called Jesus. And they are also religious eulogies, and so completely unreliable as to be constantly claiming all manner of impossible miracles.

That could never be offered as reliable "evidence" in any sense of the word.

And the only other sources, ie the non-biblical writing, are again only hearsay from later authors who make only very brief mention of Jesus, and whose work is only known to us from Christian copies made many centuries after those authors had died. We have no idea what any of those authors had originally written about Jesus, if indeed they wrote anything about him at all.

To suggest that any of that could ever be reliable genuine evidence is laughable.

That's not to say Jesus could not have existed as one of many street preachers at that time. He might have done. However, neither the biblical writing nor the very scant non-biblical writing is capable of providing anything remotely approaching reliable evidence of a historical Jesus.


But apart from all that - this thread is, as always, going around and around in entirely pointless circles.

Those here who think that real evidence can be deduced from reading religious miracle accounts such as the gospels will (apparently) never understand why that sort of ancient devotional writing is a complete non-starter as far as real “evidence” is concerned.

So it’s probably a complete waste of time for anyone requiring a more objective scientifically valid approach to waste further time arguing with them.

I mean, I do understand you feel strongly about this. But viewed from my perspective, you seem to assume the very results that are under discussion. For example:

i) Even if we disregard your view that only the oldest physical manuscripts of a text can be used for evidence for the content of a text at that time and not before, the claim that "The gospels are not, and never could be genuine evidence, because they are anonymous devotional accounts written centuries after the reported events by unknown authors who had never met, seen or heard anyone called Jesus." is surely logically incorrect as an inference.

For example: I might, today, be a secret devotee of Winston Churchill. And to this end I make a secret and anonymous blog up that gushes about how marvelous a person he was. I might even include some apocryphal stories about him (which are of course legion). And yet, it could still contain much true information (albeit seen sympathetically) about him.

Now, I've obviously never met Winston Churchill, even though my father is old enough to remember hearing him on the radio etc. And actually, the time scale between today and the death of Churchill (1965, 47 years ago) is less than between a reasonable date for the crucifixion (AD33) and the date of Mark (c. AD70).

Now I'm not saying that the above is necessarily applicable to the case of the life of Jesus and the first gospel (which in itself drew on sources). But why isn't it logically possible? How could you rule it out in advance? How could you rule out, say, the healing of the man with a withered arm as being of a psychosomatic illness without i) having apparently even read the text of Mark or ii) (I assume) having no knowledge about modern psychosomatic illness and its manifestations, or iii) the history of those sorts of illnesses, or how they have been and are now treated by community healers?
 
I know that, but since he/she's a Christian, I find it odd that this would be argued.


Oh yes, sure ... if there are "Christians" who argue that the gospel accounts are false when claiming any miracles, then what is left as the basis of their religion?

I asked Grahbudd 5 times how his idea of faith healing could explain anyone walking on water or rising from the dead, but I don’t think he ever gave any clear unambiguous explanation for such events.
 
This is rather an unpleasant thread, like any arguing for WTC conspiracy or against the evolution theory.

There is a scholarly expert consensus on this matter.

If you want to change it, go and publish and be accepted by the experts. That's the only way to do it. No crank posting on an internet forum will be able to change this. Go and publish. (And, please, require the necessary skills to read and interprete these texts in the original - in the study of history, that's pretty much a basic requirement for any authority in the field.)

Go and publish.
 
I mean, I do understand you feel strongly about this. But viewed from my perspective, you seem to assume the very results that are under discussion. For example:

i) Even if we disregard your view that only the oldest physical manuscripts of a text can be used for evidence for the content of a text at that time and not before, the claim that "The gospels are not, and never could be genuine evidence, because they are anonymous devotional accounts written centuries after the reported events by unknown authors who had never met, seen or heard anyone called Jesus." is surely logically incorrect as an inference.

For example: I might, today, be a secret devotee of Winston Churchill. And to this end I make a secret and anonymous blog up that gushes about how marvelous a person he was. I might even include some apocryphal stories about him (which are of course legion). And yet, it could still contain much true information (albeit seen sympathetically) about him.

Now, I've obviously never met Winston Churchill, even though my father is old enough to remember hearing him on the radio etc. And actually, the time scale between today and the death of Churchill (1965, 47 years ago) is less than between a reasonable date for the crucifixion (AD33) and the date of Mark (c. AD70).

Now I'm not saying that the above is necessarily applicable to the case of the life of Jesus and the first gospel (which in itself drew on sources). But why isn't it logically possible? How could you rule it out in advance? How could you rule out, say, the healing of the man with a withered arm as being of a psychosomatic illness without i) having apparently even read the text of Mark or ii) (I assume) having no knowledge about modern psychosomatic illness and its manifestations, or iii) the history of those sorts of illnesses, or how they have been and are now treated by community healers?



Winston Churchill is not a remotely a comparable analogy though, is he!

To make an analogy like that you have to pick a figure comparable to Jesus. That is a figure, lets call him “X”, who -


1. You have never seen or heard X
2. You do not know anyone who claims ever to have met X
3. You believe X to have died at some unspecified time in the past
4. You believe others who have told you that X performed many miracles
5. You believe X walked on water and raised the dead
6. You believe X was sent by a supernatural God who created heaven and earth
7. You believe X fulfilled the 500BC prophecies of OT beliefs as the saving messiah
7. You have no other knowledge of X, except 1 to 7.


That is not what you are claiming for Winston Churchill, is it! Ans - no it is not!

To pick a comparable figure, you would have to make it a figure who was claimed to be a supernatural offspring of god. Actually a so-called “dying and rising god”. There are quite a few of those you can pick from.

Try picking one of those dying & rising gods as your analogy. How about Osiris or Dionysus .... then see if your analogy stacks up when using one of those gods as a credible historical figure?
 
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Hmm, naturally I disagree with virtually everything the Jesus Seminar have to say but I am happy to see they see my point of view here! :)

But the broader point is that I'm not pushing some sort of weird esoteric line. Lots of sensible people view the gospel records in this way, that's the point. Me, the Jesus Seminar, E Sanders, Maurice Casey, etc...:)

I started Googling the subject and found several sources for the idea of Jesus as a traditional healer. It was an interesting journey and a great excuse to delay broaching the mysteries of assembling an Ikea bookshelf.

Perhaps the most relevant sources were: here, here, here, here,
here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here.


Especially familiar from grahbudd's posts were:
here
...In summary, Jesus was an influential intercessor with God, the one
and only healer. Jesus’ role was that of a folk healer who acted perfectly
in accord with folk traditions of his Middle Eastern culture.

and
here
here

While I found this a fascinating byway, it is just that, a byway and gives no credence to Jesus as an historical figure.
Back to the OP!
 
...Now I'm not saying that the above is necessarily applicable to the case of the life of Jesus and the first gospel (which in itself drew on sources). But why isn't it logically possible? How could you rule it out in advance? How could you rule out, say, the healing of the man with a withered arm as being of a psychosomatic illness without i) having apparently even read the text of Mark or ii) (I assume) having no knowledge about modern psychosomatic illness and its manifestations, or iii) the history of those sorts of illnesses, or how they have been and are now treated by community healers?

In my case, your assumptions are false.
In any case, what has all this to do with the topic of this particular thread?

ETA-
traditional healer, folk healer, community healer.
Why not faith healer?
 
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I started Googling the subject and found several sources for the idea of Jesus as a traditional healer. It was an interesting journey and a great excuse to delay broaching the mysteries of assembling an Ikea bookshelf.

Perhaps the most relevant sources were: here, here, here, here,
here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here.


Especially familiar from grahbudd's posts were:
here


and
here
here

While I found this a fascinating byway, it is just that, a byway and gives no credence to Jesus as an historical figure.
Back to the OP!

hmm, many thanks for these, none of which I had actually read! :wide-eyed
 
In my case, your assumptions are false.
In any case, what has all this to do with the topic of this particular thread?

ETA-
traditional healer, folk healer, community healer.
Why not faith healer?

Of course, if one automatically discounts all the healings and exorcisms from the career of Jesus as recorded in e.g. Mark, then one is indeed left with not that much: one is left with a guy from galilee who who got crucified (I note in particular that Jesus' teaching and exorcism ministry is closely intertwined with his teaching in Mark at least, so if you take one out, the other one is floating on air). On the contrary, I think the two stand together, and their very existence in a story allegedly about the messiah is very telling. Why a healer and exorcist in Galilee? Where would this healing and exorcism idea come from? Once again I'd like to stress the importance of the idea of restraint.

I don't like the "faith healer" designation a la the Jesus Seminar, because the word automatically today has the connotation of fraud. It puts (in my mind) the idea of a religious conman, telling people they are "cured" of serious organic diseases like cancer or heart failure, and gullible people parting with their money to be told this false information, then rationalizing away their continued problems.

As one of the links you posted points out; there is no particular reason to apply this sort of negativity to the work of healers who work in traditional communities who are dealing with concepts of both illness and health that are rather far removed from our own.
 
This is rather an unpleasant thread, like any arguing for WTC conspiracy or against the evolution theory.

There is a scholarly expert consensus on this matter.

If you want to change it, go and publish and be accepted by the experts. That's the only way to do it. No crank posting on an internet forum will be able to change this. Go and publish. (And, please, require the necessary skills to read and interprete these texts in the original - in the study of history, that's pretty much a basic requirement for any authority in the field.)

Go and publish.

Comparing this to WTC conspiracy or against the evolution theory ramblings is unfair.

I point to the fact that the Church pushed Aristotle's cosmology for nearly 13 centuries before Aristarchus of Samos' Sun centered cosmology was rediscovered by Giordano Bruno. He also stated that the universe was infinite with a center that was everywhere and an edge that was nowhere. The stars were distant suns like our own with planets orbiting them in non circular non uniform orbits.

Giordano Bruno's reward for this in 1600? Trial and execution by burning at the stake on trumped up hearsay charges.

Steve Bitterman was fired in 2007 from Southwestern Community College in Iowa for saying that Adam and Eve was a myth. When the news become public the school quickly settles the wrongful termination lawsuit against them.

The fact is the Christians may not have the power to shut people they had in Bruno's time but as Bitterman shows they can still mess up your life.
 
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Of course, if one automatically discounts all the healings and exorcisms from the career of Jesus as recorded in e.g. Mark, then one is indeed left with not that much: one is left with a guy from galilee who who got crucified (I note in particular that Jesus' teaching and exorcism ministry is closely intertwined with his teaching in Mark at least, so if you take one out, the other one is floating on air).

You've shifting your argument here and now it's 'healing' and exorcism we're talking about as the basic teaching.
Of course we're talking about hands on healing and distance healing here, aren't we?

Neither 'healing' nor exorcism seems like anything on which to base a religious figure.
And by no means provide any substance for a historical Jesus.



I don't like the "faith healer" designation a la the Jesus Seminar, because the word automatically today has the connotation of fraud. It puts (in my mind) the idea of a religious conman, telling people they are "cured" of serious organic diseases like cancer or heart failure, and gullible people parting with their money to be told this false information, then rationalizing away their continued problems.

grahbudd, today and yesterday, faith healers are frauds. Didn't you watch that video I posted?
Some things don't change.

The reported healings in Mark underline that these 'healings' are based on the sufferer's faith, don't they?
In any case, why shouldn't we think of a possible historical figure on whom 'Jesus' is based, as being 'a religious conman'?


As one of the links you posted points out; there is no particular reason to apply this sort of negativity to the work of healers who work in traditional communities who are dealing with concepts of both illness and health that are rather far removed from our own.

Oh yes, there is.
When the reported healing is used to bolster a religious faith.
When the reported healing is used to bolster a figure's authority.
This is the case in Mark, isn't it?
 
On the contrary, I think the two stand together, and their very existence in a story allegedly about the messiah is very telling. Why a healer and exorcist in Galilee? Where would this healing and exorcism idea come from? Once again I'd like to stress the importance of the idea of restraint.

.



You mean to say that miracle healers and the casting out of evil spirits were not known to anyone before it was said that Jesus was doing those things? This is all new with the arrival of Jesus?

And you are saying that you are incredulous as to how that could have ever been claimed for Jesus, unless it was all actually true? :boggled:
 
Winston Churchill is not a remotely a comparable analogy though, is he!

To make an analogy like that you have to pick a figure comparable to Jesus. That is a figure, lets call him “X”, who -


1. You have never seen or heard X
2. You do not know anyone who claims ever to have met X
3. You believe X to have died at some unspecified time in the past
4. You believe others who have told you that X performed many miracles
5. You believe X walked on water and raised the dead
6. You believe X was sent by a supernatural God who created heaven and earth
7. You believe X fulfilled the 500BC prophecies of OT beliefs as the saving messiah
7. You have no other knowledge of X, except 1 to 7.


That is not what you are claiming for Winston Churchill, is it! Ans - no it is not!

To pick a comparable figure, you would have to make it a figure who was claimed to be a supernatural offspring of god. Actually a so-called “dying and rising god”. There are quite a few of those you can pick from.

Try picking one of those dying & rising gods as your analogy. How about Osiris or Dionysus .... then see if your analogy stacks up when using one of those gods as a credible historical figure?


The problem with this tact as I have pointed out before is Euhemerism or the idea that myths are distorted accounts of real historical events. The statement "Osiris, Attis, Adonis were men. They died as men; they rose as gods." (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (1919) pg 646) is an example of this idea.

The idea that the ruler of the people was a living god or at least could trace their linage back to one shows up in many culture with Ancient Egyptian and with Modern Japan until 1946 as prime examples.

Also as I have also pointed out before the printing press makes the idea of comparison with any Western person after 1450 a strawman. One handwritten copy could be altered, misplaced, or destroyed but not hundreds or even thousands of identical copies. This is why things like The Discoverie of Witchcraft (1584) by Reginald Scot survive despite the best efforts of those who argued against it to destroy every copy they could get their hands so only their view of it survived (James I of England in this example)
 
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You mean to say that miracle healers and the casting out of evil spirits were not known to anyone before it was said that Jesus was doing those things? This is all new with the arrival of Jesus?

And you are saying that you are incredulous as to how that could have ever been claimed for Jesus, unless it was all actually true? :boggled:

You will note that I said "in a story allegedly about the Messiah". There is a problem here.
 
So the Myther dodge is that because both in this passage (that's Commentarii in evangelium Matthaei X.17) and in the other two where he uses the exact phrase we find in XX.9.1, Origen claims Josephus says things we don't find said in Josephus, he must have been referring to some other text or to some interpolated form of Antiquities XX.9.1. Problem solved.

Except, it isn't.

Anyone who has actually read Origen fully and studied the scholarship on how he uses references to material like Josephus (that rules out pretty much every Myther on the planet) knows that when Origen tells us one of his sources "says" or "reports" something, he's not using his source like a modern historian, or even an ancient one. Origen was a Christian exegete and he used all of his sources with the intention of explicating the truth of the Scriptures and the (for him) unquestionable veracity of the Christian message. So Origen regularly tells us of his sources "saying" or "reporting" things that they don't actually say or report - he imposes his interpretation via his Christian conviction on them.

For example, looking at another reference to Josephus by Origen, in Fragmenta in Lamentationes, Nr. 109, Lam 4,14 he refers to Jewish War VI.5.3 but changes details of what Josephus reports to make them fit his exegesis on Lamentations. Or in Fragmenta in Lamentationes, Nr. 115, Lam 4,19 he claims:

"Josephus reports that even the mountains did not save those who were trying to escape."​

But Josephus actually "reports" no such thing. Origen is reading that into what Josephus actually says and then telling us that he "reports" it when he doesn't - this is purely Origen's interpretation.

So if we turn to what Origen similarly says about what Josephus "says" or "reports" about the death of James, we are reading his interpretation: one biased by his idea that all history since Jesus has revolved around him and his followers.

The idea that the execution of James triggered a sequence of events that led to the destruction of the Temple seems to be an old one and certainly seems to predate Origen's comments on Antiquities XX.9.1. Hegesippus ends his account of the execution of James by saying:

And so he suffered martyrdom; and they buried him on the spot, and the pillar erected to his memory still remains, close by the temple. This man was a true witness to both Jews and Greeks that Jesus is the Christ. And shortly after Vespasian besieged Judaea, taking them captive.(H.E. II.23.18)​

The idea that the fall of Jerusalem was connected to and caused by the execution of James became a standard trope, being mentioned also by Eusebius (though following Origen) and Jerome and implied in Gnostic traditions about James.

And reading the rest of Antiquities XX (ie chapters 9 and 11), it is easy to see why an exegete like Origen would read Josephus this way. Because Josephus details how Ananus' fall from his former position encouraged him to wield influence through bribery and currying favour with gifts thanks to wealth he gained from extortionate religious taxes (XX.9.2). This led to the sicarii rebels (the villains of Josephus' account of the Jewish War) targeting him via the kidnapping of his son, Eleazar, forcing Ananus to lean on Albinus to release captured sicarii in exchange for his son (XX.9.3). This was followed by Albinus trying to gain favour with the increasingly fractious priests by releasing even more sicarii rebels so that "the prisons were indeed emptied, but the country was filled with rebel bandits" (XX.9.5).

He presents this sequence of events as the precursors of the procuratorship of Gessius Florus and as the background to the environment of political dispute, rebel banditry and Roman violence and oppression which triggered the rebellion that he had already detailed in his earlier work, the Jewish War.

Naturally we can see that Josephus isn't saying these things happened because of the execution of James and isn't connecting James to them in anything but an incidental way. But Origen didn't read his sources that way - he read them through the lenses of faith and "saw" connections and causes in this sequence of events where Josephus details how " as for the affairs of the Jews, they grew worse and worse continually" and how this sequence led to the fall of Jerusalem. Like Hegesippus, and others, the place of the execution of James in this sequence was not hoc post hoc but rather hoc propter hoc.

This explains why Origen tells his readers that Josephus "says" things and "reports" things that we can see are not explicit in Josephus at all. And it does so without resorting to suppositions about a hypothetical redaction of Josephus that does explicitly "say" these things but which is found nowhere in the textual tradition.

Because that supposition is highly problematic. As I've already noted, the idea that James' execution brought the punishment of the destruction of the Temple down on the priesthood was already a trope in the Christian tradition. If there had been a redaction of Josephus which claimed this explicitly it makes no sense that it would be cited by Origen in these three passages and then disappear altogether - other Christian writers would have used it and it would have been likely to have been preserved. After all, the fact that the TF is not quoted or referred to in its current form until Eusebius is, correctly, used to indicate that it did not exist in its current (interpolated) form prior to the Fourth Century. The same argument works here.

Yet we see no sign of this hypothetical redaction and there is no reference to it anywhere else. This doesn't make sense. That Origen was doing his usual creative reading of his sources when he refers to what Josephus "says" fits the evidence better.

Which leaves us with "Ἰησοῦ τοῦ λεγομένου Χριστοῦ" being quoted in the mid Third Century and clear evidence that this IS how Josephus described Jesus in his account of the execution of James.

However you cut it, the Myther attempts to wriggle away from the implications of Antiquities XX.9.1 all totally fail:

  • The claim Χριστοῦ would have been "unintelligible" fails - it was understood by Greek speakers to mean "Anointed".
  • The claim this nickname would have been explained to his readers fails - Josephus often referred to such names without explaining them.
  • The claim that "Jesus, who was called Anointed" is the same person as "Jesus, the son of Damenus" fails on multiple counts, particularly because it is the absolute opposite of the careful way Josephus refers to and differentiates between people with the same name.
  • The claim that either the phrase "who was called Anointed" or just the word "Anointed" are interpolations fails - the verbatim quotes in three places in Origen's works show that it is original.

So even if we don't go down the rabbit hole of debate about the TF, this reference to Jesus on its own kills Mytherism dead. One reference by Josephus is enough to establish the existence of several other such First Century preachers, prophets and miracle workers so it's enough for Jesus as well. At least for any objective person without an ideological bias and a big emotional anti-Christian axe to grind. Anyone who doesn't accept a clear identification of a contemporary of Josephus via a reference to his historical brother in the context of events that Josephus himself witnessed as a young man is simply not wanting to be convinced.

This is by far the best explication of the Josephus/Origen association found in this thread. I'm hardly surprised at not a single myther here addressing it -- and no, I'm not talking about addressing the Josephus/Origen association; I'm talking about addressing _this_ _explication_ of it.

Mythers are not in this to ascertain the most likely history by rigorous research and analysis. They're here to score winning points by any means necessary. No wonder we have yet to see a completed thorough peer-reviewed published analysis of their case from any of them. They're not interested in conscientious scholarship. They're interested in cult brainwashing and propaganda.

Stone
 
You've shifting your argument here and now it's 'healing' and exorcism we're talking about as the basic teaching.
Of course we're talking about hands on healing and distance healing here, aren't we?

Neither 'healing' nor exorcism seems like anything on which to base a religious figure.
And by no means provide any substance for a historical Jesus.


grahbudd, today and yesterday, faith healers are frauds. Didn't you watch that video I posted?
Some things don't change.

The reported healings in Mark underline that these 'healings' are based on the sufferer's faith, don't they?
In any case, why shouldn't we think of a possible historical figure on whom 'Jesus' is based, as being 'a religious conman'?


Oh yes, there is.
When the reported healing is used to bolster a religious faith.
When the reported healing is used to bolster a figure's authority.
This is the case in Mark, isn't it?

Im sorry i suddenly introduced the exorcisms here. Once more, the description is one thing, the interpretation another.

One thing i would like to get away from is the imposition of value judgments at the beginning of the analysis. Ultimately, of course, whether or not one is convinced the material at hand convinces of the existence of a historical Jesus, we are still left with the texts themselves, and they can naturally elicite some sort of value judgment response.

In this regard, I would fully agree that there have been many shucksters masquerading as prophets, teachers and religious teachers through the ages. As an atheist, one might think that their basic metaphysics is flatly wrong. But that does not, I think, imply by necessity that all prophets, teachers etc were insincere, out to profit, etc.

One example might be, for example, Francis of Assisi. He was certainly a very strange man, and not all of his ideals are palatable to the modern mind. But by emphasising humility and poverty in his teaching, he exerted an enormous influence on the entire western tradition (an influence, one might even think, in particular need today in an era of celebrities and the megarich).

The picture the gospels paint of Jesus is a mixed one. At some points stern and urgent, he also (in our sources at least) thought that childlike simplicity was a great virtue, and offered fellowship to people who were traditionally considered outcasts in his society (eg tax collectors, prostitutes and adulterers) without apparently demanding anything in return. His message, which again seems to have been consistently misinterpreted, seems to have been that a new era of forgiveness had already begun - it's notable that he does not demand repentance etc in his dealings with these supposed dregs of society. And, of course, if he was a charlatan out to aggrandise or enrich himself, he was a singularly unsuccessful one, given that his ministry ended in a very humiliating public execution. And in the examples I have been discussing, he reserves his severest judgment for those who would use religion to condemn people and restrict their lives ('the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath). I think it is hard to draw easy parallels with modern pastors who preach a 'gospel' of worldly success and have used that teaching to amass massive wealth for themselves.

I do not mean to sound pious here - and I apologise if I do - but my point is that, to a certain extent at least, it is possible to view figures like the Jesus of the gospels without a huge labelling of aggression based on the lamentable antics of people who claim in some sense to be direct spiritual descendants of this figure.

Now of course, it's quite true that Mark, writing to a first century community of (presumably largely) gentile Christians, is keen to present Jesus in a certain light - as the messiah and son of God, and he shapes his material accordingly. The consequences of the eventual triumph of christianity in the empire were - for good or bad - momentous. But at the time the evangelists were writing, all this weight of history were ahead of them. I merely wish to invite people to look at the texts without the nagging figure of, say, Pat Robertson, gnawing away at their reading of them.
 
Im sorry i suddenly introduced the exorcisms here. Once more, the description is one thing, the interpretation another.

No worries, grahbudd. Exorcisms form part of faith healing after all.


One thing i would like to get away from is the imposition of value judgments at the beginning of the analysis. Ultimately, of course, whether or not one is convinced the material at hand convinces of the existence of a historical Jesus, we are still left with the texts themselves, and they can naturally elicite some sort of value judgment response.

In this regard, I would fully agree that there have been many shucksters masquerading as prophets, teachers and religious teachers through the ages. As an atheist, one might think that their basic metaphysics is flatly wrong. But that does not, I think, imply by necessity that all prophets, teachers etc were insincere, out to profit, etc.

Basic metaphysics?
We're talking about the charlatanery in the gospels, aren't we?
Faith healing being presented to the naive as evidence of divine intervention?

... And, of course, if he was a charlatan out to aggrandise or enrich himself, he was a singularly unsuccessful one, given that his ministry ended in a very humiliating public execution. And in the examples I have been discussing, he reserves his severest judgment for those who would use religion to condemn people and restrict their lives ('the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath). I think it is hard to draw easy parallels with modern pastors who preach a 'gospel' of worldly success and have used that teaching to amass massive wealth for themselves.

Easy parallels with modern pastors?
I don't think so.
My point was the continuity and persistence of faith healing. Perhaps I wasn't clear.

The psychology of a charlatan doesn't always centre on money or success, grahbudd. It's a complex subject, of course, and perhaps outside of the thread's objective.



I do not mean to sound pious here - and I apologise if I do - but my point is that, to a certain extent at least, it is possible to view figures like the Jesus of the gospels without a huge labelling of aggression based on the lamentable antics of people who claim in some sense to be direct spiritual descendants of this figure.

A labelling of aggression?
What makes you think those 'lamentable antics' are not a perfect mirror to what a 1st century faith healing would have been like?


Now of course, it's quite true that Mark, writing to a first century community of (presumably largely) gentile Christians, is keen to present Jesus in a certain light - as the messiah and son of God, and he shapes his material accordingly.

Since the thread's topic is about what would make Jesus an historical figure, I can see your point here.
But could you clear up whether Mark is right in presenting a human as the son of God?
And also, how seriously can we consider Mark as an accurate source of information about a person he's selling as supernatural?
 
Mythers are not in this to ascertain the most likely history by rigorous research and analysis. They're here to score winning points by any means necessary.

Stone is not in this to ascertain the most likely history by actual argument and evidence. He's here to sling mud at his opponents.

See ? That's easy to do, but it doesn't actually bring anything to the debate. It's interesting irony that you say that in a post entirely devoid of content. Perhaps you should leave people more time to respond to a post made yesterday.

This is a fascinating subject, and neither side gets "points" in any way, and certainly not by belittling each other. Besides, none of us here can do rigorous research and analysis. Few if any here are actual historians. Get your act together.
 
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Sorry, if the question is offtopic: But how does the Egerton Gospel fit into all of this? It seems to be a rather early one but unrelated to the others (at least in my understanding).
 
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