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Julian Assange: rapist or not?

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Childlike Empress said:
While we are waiting, why not listen to what Daniel Ellsberg has to say about the latest developments in the Assange saga...
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Because he is a boring, inconsequential windbag and he doesn't have anything to tell us that JJ, UE et al haven't put forth in the last two pages.
 
Childlike Empress said:
While we are waiting, why not listen to what Daniel Ellsberg has to say about the latest developments in the Assange saga...

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Here_to_learn said:
Pretext: JA was not “accused”
Answer: English courts found that he is

Pretext: EAW instead of video interview was not proportionate
Answer. English courts found that it was

Pretext: Easier to extradite from Sweden compared to UK
Answer: Not according to European, Swedish and UK law

Pretext: JA risks death penalty in US if extradited from Sweden
Answer: Sweden may not legally extradite to US if he risks death penalty

Pretext: JA may be extradited to US for espionage charges
Answer: Sweden may not legally extradite to US if JA is charged for a political crime
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He uses a new argument also (transcript):
Daniel Ellsberg said:
All of this supports the idea that this is merely a way of getting him to Sweden, which apparently would be easier to extradite him from to the United States than Britain. If Britain were totally open to extraditing him, it would have happened by now. Two years have passed.
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So since he hasn't been extradited to US already, that is proof that it's harder from the UK than from Sweden! How can you ever argue about a legal analysis as sharp as that one!:rolleyes:
 
WildCat said:
Ron Paul is a paleoconservative. Did you miss where he hobnobs with white supremacists like Stormfront founders the Blacks? He thinks states should be able to outlaw abortion? Would repeal the Civil Rights Act? Thinks a gold standard is a viable monetary system? Thinks states should be allowed to establish a religion? Thinks Evolution is "just a theory"? Then there's all those racist newsletters he put out for years.

Etc etc.

I get the feeling you know absolutely nothing about Ron Paul, you just like him because he's also an isolationist and ignore all his other heavy baggage. He certainly espouses many of the views you think 9/11 was justified over. He certainly didn't support the Kyoto Treaty, and it's inconceivable he'd ever support any environmental regulation.

Are you sure he's your guy?
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Unlike you, I do not judge people entirely by one thing they say. I don't "have a guy" in US politics. I am capable of agreeing with some things Ron Paul says, and disagreeing with others. I am capable of respecting him for honestly challenging the banksters at the same time as rejecting his stance on climate change.

Life is not as simple as you think it is.
 
Right, like you can agree with and respect David Duke's courageous stand against the gangsterZionistentity, but respectively disagree with his stance concerning the genetic inferiority of blacks.

Life is grey, not black and white.
 
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uke2se said:
:boggled:

This is what we're up against, it seems. Complete fantasy.
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I don't know how you would define rogue state, but the invasion of Iraq was mind boggling. In the city in which I live, Melbourne, well over 100,000 people marched. When the USA invaded Afghanistan to pursue the Taliban and Bin Laden, well, there was something inevitable about that, but when they pulled Iraq out of their hat :boggled:.

Usually wars start with neighbours fighting each other or extending their influence in their region, then the wars spread with allies taking part. Was this the first war where one nation shipped and flew a whole invasion force around the world to unilaterally start a war based on sheer fantasy?

Extraordinary rendition hasn't helped, nor the legal shenanigans that were used to create Guantanamo.

Obama is a much more moderate MOTR type person, but if Romney gets in, the fireworks could be going off again.

From Asia to Europe and the seat of American power, hundreds of thousands of anti-war protesters took to the streets at the weekend in a global appeal for peace, as US President George Bush prepared for a summit with allies billed as a final diplomatic effort before an attack on Iraq.
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Final diplomatic effort? Would anyone believe that now?

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/16/1047749662939.html

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/02/14/1044927801876.html

More than 100,000 people - believed to be Melbourne's largest peace rally - marched through the city yesterday to protest against a war on Iraq.

Police spokeswoman Senior Constable Julie-Anne Newman said the demonstration was "so big" that it was difficult to estimate the size of the crowd.

But she said it was "in excess of 100,000".

The rally started at 5pm outside the State Library and finished at Federation Square, clogging city streets for more than three hours.

At 5.45pm Australian Greens Senator Bob Brown said organisers had advised him the crowd was between 100,000-200,000, with more still arriving.

In 1970, at the height of the anti-Vietnam War movement, an estimated 100,000 sat down in Collins Street in what was regarded as the city's biggest peace rally.

....
Organiser Damien Lawson said: "As far as the eye can see, I can see people all the way up Swanston Street to the north and up the other end of Swanston Street I can see people coming this way. The protest is enormous. This protest is huge."
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This doesn't have any bearing on the current issue, but in some ways, rogue state can apply.
 
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UndercoverElephant said:
Unlike you, I do not judge people entirely by one thing they say.
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LOL, you judged him by this one single issue. He agrees with you on the wikileaks thing, so you latched on to him like a tween girl to Justin Bieber.
 
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a_unique_person said:
Usually wars start with neighbours fighting each other or extending their influence in their region, then the wars spread with allies taking part. Was this the first war where one nation shipped and flew a whole invasion force around the world to unilaterally start a war based on sheer fantasy?
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Dude, seriously? You live in Australia!

How is it you're a white guy speaking English? :rolleyes:
 
UndercoverElephant said:
Unlike you, I do not judge people entirely by one thing they say. I don't "have a guy" in US politics. I am capable of agreeing with some things Ron Paul says, and disagreeing with others. I am capable of respecting him for honestly challenging the banksters at the same time as rejecting his stance on climate change.

Life is not as simple as you think it is.
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Twoofers of all stripes feed us this line of crap nonstop. You have no more moral high ground left, you've lost all your arguments, been caught cheering on 9/11 and now praising one of the biggest loons in congress. Faced with this, suddenly you scramble for high ground by accusing your critics of being too critical, just plain mean and biased against Ron Paul, not open-minded and fair like you! What a transparent self-rationalization. Well he's a loon on balance. A broken clock is right twice a day. You respect him on the bankers, ok fine, do you have any clue what he would do to the financial industry at all? Do you support returning to the gold standard? He has no redeeming qualities that can't be downgraded by his related kookiness. Since we all only have one vote, claiming not to have "a guy" is just pissing in the wind.
 
WildCat said:
LOL, you judged him by this one single issue.
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Err...no, I didn't. I posted a link to a youtube video of him and explained what he was talking about in the link. I didn't judge him at all, let alone on one issue.

I am (mercifully) no expert on US politics. I'm mainly aware of Mr Paul for his ridiculing of Mr Bernanke.
 
Professor Yaffle said:
Pretty thorough article by David Allen Green (Jack of Kent) in the New Statesman:

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/09/assange-and-legal-myths
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Agreed - he doesn't really add anything new to the discussion (and of course doesn't set out to do that), but it's a good description of the current situation, and he outlines why legally Sweden could not give a guarantee about not extraditing to the US, but still why JA would be legally safer in Sweden compared to the UK.

One point that I had missed earlier is from the High Court judgement, regarding "charging". Basically it sets out that if we have had the same situation in England, JA would have been charged already based on what is currently known. This highlights the difference between the legal systems.
High Court Judgement said:
Plainly this is a case which has moved from suspicion to accusation supported by proof. […]

In England and Wales, a decision to charge is taken at a very early stage; there can be no doubt that if what Mr Assange had done had been done in England and Wales, he would have been charged and thus criminal proceedings would have been commenced.
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Joey McGee said:
Twoofers of all stripes feed us this line of crap nonstop. You have no more moral high ground left, you've lost all your arguments, been caught cheering on 9/11 and now praising one of the biggest loons in congress. Faced with this, suddenly you scramble for high ground by accusing your critics of being too critical, just plain mean and biased against Ron Paul, not open-minded and fair like you! What a transparent self-rationalization. Well he's a loon on balance. A broken clock is right twice a day. You respect him on the bankers, ok fine, do you have any clue what he would do to the financial industry at all? Do you support returning to the gold standard? He has no redeeming qualities that can't be downgraded by his related kookiness. Since we all only have one vote, claiming not to have "a guy" is just pissing in the wind.
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Firsly, I'm English, so I don't have to go through the rather soul-destroying exercise of choosing between a right wing candidate and an extremely right wing candidate in a US Presidential election. In my own country I voted Green at the last election, and my vote helped to elect the first Green MP ever to be returned to Westminster. I also live in the only Green-run city in the UK.

Do I support a return to the gold standard? Well, I know the fiat money system is fundamentally broken and cannot be repaired, so we are going to have to invent some new sort of monetary system to replace it. As for what that system is I am open to debate. It may well involve precious metals. It might also involve backing a currency with some other sort of commodity, or energy.

It is not a question of whether or not the existing monetary system should be replaced. It has been broken since 2008 and all the people who are running the system can do is print money and rig markets/statistics in order to hide the fact that it is broken. They cannot continue to do this indefinitely. Eventually the oil exporters will simply refuse to accept fiat dollars as payment for their oil, and at that point gold will return to the global monetary system as the de-facto reserve currency. Want oil? Cough up gold.
 
Here_to_learn said:
He uses a new argument also (transcript):
So since he hasn't been extradited to US already, that is proof that it's harder from the UK than from Sweden! How can you ever argue about a legal analysis as sharp as that one!:rolleyes:
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That's one of the dumbest arguments I've seen about this case to date. I'm surprised we haven't seen it earlier.
 
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