Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

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What a bloody mess. As I said, I miss the old (as in ~2 years back or so) style of Internet atheism.
 
Badger3k said:
Now, if only we could close the door on the roach motel and keep them inside. ;P
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I wouldn't want to close the door, it would be a form of failure in that those outside have become exclusive as well.

These are not insignificant people, they have a large presence on the internet and from what I read, at atheist, secular, skeptic and rational conferences. If, as some if us here think, it will fall apart under its own contradictions we should be prepared to accept it as a failed experiment and that these people still have much to offer. Personally I didn't agree with all they said before A+ and I obviously don't agree with A+ but I can agree with much they say.
 
But it's fun to go over and learn about how my entitlement means nothing bad can ever happen to me, and I've no right to complain if it does.

I haven't posted, but when moderate critiques are met with accusations of trolling, I immediately think it's an echo chamber, not the place I want to be.

http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=375#p3155

KaineDamo wrote: "I've actually been in the middle of the issue (before AtheismPlus) for a number of weeks, paying close attention to what Matt Dillahunty had to say as I respect him very much, weighing up what Thunderf00t was saying, looking at what outsiders were saying, etc. This "third wave of atheism", AtheismPlus, is what pushed it over the edge for me. I thought at first that Thunderf00t had been too harsh, that maybe there was some kind of grand misunderstanding between himself and the FTBers that could be solved with a nice discussion. I now realize that isn't the case. FTB are a clique that want others to conform to their policies, and even some amazing thinkers like Matt and Greta have been swallowed up into this irrational group think mentality.

AtheismPlus is deeply unpopular outside of FTB. One only has to type it into twitter, or into youtube, to see the dissent against this movement. How can you not see the harm this has caused?"


TROLL! TROLLLLLLL INNNNN THE DUNGEOONNNNSSSS!

...thought you'd might like to know...-collapses-
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Jen McCreight said:
And it's just, the whole culture just seems ridiculous. That there is this brigade of atheists that say what you can and can't talk about. It's like,we're not forcing you to talk about this if you don't care, but we can't even have a safe place to do it on our own. So honestly right now I'm pretty cynical about the whole thing. I don't know, like,what else I can do to have a community where I can talk about this thing. I don't know if I want to keep putting my time and effort and tears into this atheist movement if I can't even talk about topics that interest me because a swarm of people are going to come down and silence me!
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facepalm
How can anyone silence you? You have a blog. Has Jen been banned from conferences or anything like that, for being "too liberal"? For being "too feminist"? Has she faced any repercussions at all, other than rude remarks from strangers on the Internet? What has the evil atheist community done here?

I honestly do not grok these people at all. The more I learn about them, the less I understand them.
 
rustypouch said:
I haven't posted, but when moderate critiques are met with accusations of trolling, I immediately think it's an echo chamber, not the place I want to be.
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Psshht! They call that trolling?

See, if I were going to troll them, I wouldn't do it as a critic. Too obvious. I would pretend to be one of them.
 
Humes fork said:
It seems so, yeah.

Over the years, the two biggest atheist forums (IIDB and RDF) self-destructed as well in various ways. I wasn't there to see it, but I've read the stories.
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One thing that Atheismplus has in its favour - it's difficult to put together a club with a mutual interest in not collecting stamps.
 
rustypouch said:
But it's fun to go over and learn about how my entitlement means nothing bad can ever happen to me, and I've no right to complain if it does.
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Is that on the page you link to, or on another page?

I haven't posted, but when moderate critiques are met with accusations of trolling, I immediately think it's an echo chamber, not the place I want to be.

http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=375#p3155
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That thread is interesting. We've got a comment from one person who said quoting Natalie Reed on twitter got them a bunch of insulting comments. However the fact that she said those things and wasn't crucified is evidence that FtB is tolerant or something.

The cynic would say that the reason she hasn't been crucified is because it would be inconvenient.
 
westprog said:
One thing that Atheismplus has in its favour - it's difficult to put together a club with a mutual interest in not collecting stamps.
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Not sure if I agree with that. Atheismplus isn't about atheism anymore than as a vehicle for them to push their political ideology.
 
Humes fork said:
Not sure if I agree with that. Atheismplus isn't about atheism anymore than as a vehicle for them to push their political ideology.
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It's founded on the idea that if you subscribe to certain ideals about racism, sexism, social justice, you will necessarily agree about the means by which these things should be opposed and achieved. The corollary is of course that people who don't agree on the means are necessarily for/against what they should be against/for and are despicable people. The fault lines appear as soon as someone disagrees about some topic - affirmative action, or appropriate language, or taxation policy. They then have to become not just a respected opponent but a vile sexist racist pig.
 
Humes fork said:
It seems so, yeah.

Over the years, the two biggest atheist forums (IIDB and RDF) self-destructed as well in various ways. I wasn't there to see it, but I've read the stories.
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I was a member of both and it wasn't pretty. Dawkins came off as a self absorbed academic in the RDF fiasco while the IIDB underwent some type of political struggle.

Here's the sucessor to the IIDB
http://www.freeratio.org/
 
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Axiom_Blade said:
I honestly do not grok these people at all. The more I learn about them, the less I understand them.
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Try some reading up on radical leftist politics in the 1930's and 1960's and follow that up with some info on cults of the '70's and 80's.

The bizarre thing is that these people think they are rationalists. :boggled:

ETA:

There is some interesting commentary about this whole mess on the Elevatorgate Blog. (If you need a history of Elevatorgate read this.)

I particularly liked this from Paula Kirby.

Real skeptics are better than you’d think from reading certain blogs.

Real freethinkers are better than you’d think from reading certain blogs
.
Real feminists are better than you’d think from reading certain blogs.

And real women are better than you’d think from reading certain blogs
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.
 
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Given that the plus atheists seem to spend a lot of time sniping at Dawkins, and Myers' deep involvement with this group, how will Dawkins' and Myers' friendship evolve?
 
Acleron said:
I wouldn't want to close the door, it would be a form of failure in that those outside have become exclusive as well.

These are not insignificant people, they have a large presence on the internet and from what I read, at atheist, secular, skeptic and rational conferences. If, as some if us here think, it will fall apart under its own contradictions we should be prepared to accept it as a failed experiment and that these people still have much to offer. Personally I didn't agree with all they said before A+ and I obviously don't agree with A+ but I can agree with much they say.
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Failure of what? I don't see atheism as any form of movement except in the general sense, and if these people want to form their own echo chamber, let them stay in there and let the rest of us enjoy life and pursue the activities that we want. There are a lot of activists who just happen to be atheists, and they can get a lot more done without the divisiveness and infighting caused by these dogmatic idiots.

As for being insignificant, they are still just small fish in a big pond. A real, real big pond. I have approx 130 or so people I work with. If I quizzed them, how many do you think would have even heard of PZ Myers, or have seen the blue-haired Watson in its native environment (the bar). If someone other than me said yes, I'd be surprised. They are only as significant as we let them be, and the more they yell, the more attention they get. There is a lot of negative reactions to them, so hopefully the drama llamas will be pushed into obscurity, and if that diminishes us as a people, there are billions more around who can fill in the gap.

As for conferences, if anyone invites someone unqualified to speak (as some of these people clearly are) while ignoring others who are more qualified, that is a shame and a failure on their part. Of course, while I'd like to try one TAM, other conferences have no attraction for me. I can get the same material online without the cost, the travel, or the bother, and I can do it without the hassle of the echo chamber that so many of those things seem to be.
 
Axiom_Blade said:
The URI got word-filtered. Try this:
http://goo.gl/4cHQ2
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Didn't work for me. Try http://athefist.wordpress.com and read the post for 30/08/2012.

Wow! That's too much common sense on one page. I need some A+ Kool-Aid as an antidote! :D

[Abuse on the Internet] is not a phenomenon unique to women, to feminist women or to feminist female atheists. It happens to everyone. What seems to be different is the reaction to it. For whatever reason the wing of the atheist movement (a better word than community I think) that seems to be forming A+ takes these threats and trollings seriously. It seems like the internet wisdom of ‘Don’t feed the troll’ has utterly passed them by. Indeed the very idea of A+ can be seen as one of the greatest trolling successes of all time.
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One thing I've learned is that trolls only have the power you give to them, something the A+ feminists and their enablers either don't know or don't realize. Perhaps subconsciously they actually find the trolling flattering on a narcissistic level. (I mean it all about them, isn't it?)

And how are you helping exactly by creating a splinter group and propagating the myth that atheism is somehow a hotbed of misogyny and violence towards women?
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This poisonous (and unproven) meme is the true legacy of Elevatorgate. It has already been reported as fact in the scant attention this mess has received in the mainstream media.
 
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Walter Ego said:
Perhaps subconsciously they actually find the trolling flattering on a narcissistic level.
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There's another explantion. Righteous outrage feels good, and people look for reasons to feel it. We see this in a wide variety of venues, on a wide variety of subjects. Truth be told, I sometimes find myself slipping into it.

Trolls make it easy to feel righteously indignant.

Of course, the 'narcissism' explanantion and 'righteous indignation' explanation are not mutually exclusive.
 
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