Merged No Planer calls for scientific study / Missiles of 9/11

200px-Trollface.svg.png
 
HotRodDeluxe said:
Thank you. I'm on another forum and threads are continually hijacked by a truther. I use the resources here to discredit her insanity, but she's now claiming that there is no proof Flight 11 ever existed. As this is happening as we speak, I could only find truther sites supporting this idiot's stance and I needed a quick response.

Later edit: In hindsight, it may be best I don't use that link. This moron is likely to pester the family members, but thanks for your help.
Click to expand...

DGM said:
I bet none of these will help.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/index.htm

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc01.pdf

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc05.pdf
Click to expand...

DGM's linked the FAA's flight path studies for Flight 11, and to most rational people (that unfortunately would exclude the trolling truther, but at least your bystanders would get the info) that's very compelling evidence right there. But it's not the only stuff that's available. The airphone/cellphone calls that used to be available at the Moussaoui trial evidence site (yeah, while the site is still there, the recordings themselves have disappeared, unfortunately :() were another. 911 Myths has Betty Ong's recording and a couple of other items on his site at this link:

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Flight_11_Calls

There's also the eyewitness testimony:
https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/whattheysaw:eyewitnessaccountsofthenycai

... and also some items recovered from the flight in the debris of the attack:
https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/aircraftpartsnyc911 (scroll down to the "Personal Effects and Documents from Flights 11 and 175 Recovered" section)

There's more, but this is what I can dig up on short notice from my links archive. A couple of good resources for the flights are Mark Robert's page (his handle at this forum is "Gravy"), and 911 Myths:
Also, the Moussaoui trial evidence page is good, even without the actual files being available any longer, plus there are other sites out there with mention of the flights, but 9/11 woo covers so many topics that not all of them deal with the specifics of United 11's existence. Most are forced to organize themselves by the claims the truthers put forth instead. Regardless, there's good information out there. Hope it helps.
 
Just for fun, despite it being a rather serious matter, I will try to explain how the planes could have cut through the exterior steel columns. I believe there were no planes, but it's always best to have many options on the table until it's known for sure.

If the floors where the planes impacted were missing, then only the exterior steel columns would have been the resistance. Could a jet plane really cut through that? Yes, possibly, with enormous momentum making huge amounts of energy being released at impact, which made the whole plane slice through the steel like a laser sword cutting through butter, which is what the videos of the impacts show.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Yes, possibly, with enormous momentum making huge amounts of energy being released at impact, which made the whole plane slice through the steel like a laser sword cutting through butter, which is what the videos of the impacts show.
Click to expand...

You mean like in operation of flight perhaps?
 
HotRodDeluxe said:
Thank you. I'm on another forum and threads are continually hijacked by a truther. I use the resources here to discredit her insanity, but she's now claiming that there is no proof Flight 11 ever existed. As this is happening as we speak, I could only find truther sites supporting this idiot's stance and I needed a quick response.

Later edit: In hindsight, it may be best I don't use that link. This moron is likely to pester the family members, but thanks for your help.
Click to expand...
WTCwallpanelxx.jpg


You can hear this panel crash into the street during the "Ginny Carr" audiotape that caught the sound of flight 11, 9.25 seconds after the collision you hear a secondary impact.

http://www.sonicmemorial.org/sonic/...rg/sonicmedia//repository/media/child_864.mp3

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5898171&postcount=390

0:00-0:34 Female voice: [Boring meeting talk.] [There is a constant background noise - white noise or city hum? Air conditioning?]
Beginning of 0:35-0:37: [Something swells out of the background noise - like an approaching jet plane might]
End of 0:37: [Short bang that is somewhat louder than the woman speaking (though hard to tell how much louder)]
0:39-0:40 Male voice: "(?the heck?) was that?"
0:41-0:42 Female voice: [ETA:] "Was that the, uh, Concorde?"
0:45-0:49 Male voice: "Wow ... heh ... (?salaries?) don't crash heh"
Beginning of 0:47: [A second boom, lower in pitch and softer than the first]
0:49-0:55 All voices: [unreadable chatter]
0:55-1:00 Other female voice: "Hah! [?...?] airplane that I just saw [?...?]"
1:00-1:05 Male voice: "Oh my god - that was pretty close to us"
The processing and interpretation begins after that, and the event as such is over, so let me stop here.


Here's my interpretation:
- They hear the loud bang at 0:37. They recognize it as something unusualy and noteworthy, but have no explanation yet
- The "Hah!" at 0:55 and the "Oh my god!" at 1:00 seem to indicate that that is the moment they realize the scale of the event
- The woman connects the dots between the bang and an airplane she saw earlier
- Apparently, they could not see the impact zone high on the tower from where they were sitting in the meeting room
- Apparently, one woman was able to see the plane while it was still some distance away, so she must have been able to look out a window facing north
- Starting 0:55 they seem to be watching (seeing) the impact zone on the tower, so they must have a window from where it is possible to see the tower in their west. Maybe the meeting was held in a room on the corner of 1 Liberty Plaza? Can anyone verify?

The secondary "boom" is heard about 9.3 seconds after the crash (manually timed with stopwatch). Since the beginning of the crash is marked by the plane entering the building at about 450mph = about 200m/s, and the building is 208ft = 63m wide, a steel panel with wheel embedded would not break free sonner than 0.3 seconds after impact, so free fall time is 9.0 seconds max.

With s= 1/2 gt2, a heavy steel section would have fallen 396m in free fall in 9.0s

The crash occurred around a height of 360 meters - so we are about 10% off the calculated value. I guess there is a considerable margin of error to take into account. Sources of imprecision:
- I suspect I react better to the first boom because I anticipate it better fromn the swelling. Maybe 9.25s is a better measure than 9.3, reducing the expected height by about 4 meters (1 floor)
- The wheel that broke out the steel panel was certainly slowed by the impact. If it travelled the depth of the building in 0.4 instead of 0.3 seconds, free fall height would come out as 388 meters.
- The panel may not have been free to fall instantly, further reducing the fall hight.
- I have not researched what the starting hight for the steel panel was - my assumption of 360m is smack in the middle of the impact zone that's given by wikipedia as "between the 93rd and 99th floors". Could of course be less or more
- I suspect air drag would not slow down the fall by much, but of course there will be some drag.
- The sound takes different times to travel from their different origins. The Ginny Carr party was on the 36th floor - slightly closer in hight to the streetlevel secondary crash than to the plane impact zone. On the other hand, being on the north face of 1 Liberty Plaza, they are a little closer laterally to the plane impact. So that may cancel out.

Overall, my assessment is, that the Ginny Carr recording is in agreement with the plane theory:
- we hear a swelling sound that may be jet engines
- One witness reports having seen a plane, and connects that with the impact
- We have a secondary crash that is in close agreement with the assumption of a heavy part of steel panel crashing onto Liberty Street near St. Nicholas orthodox church after free fall from the impact zone between 93rd and 99th story.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Anders Lindman said:
Just for fun, despite it being a rather serious matter, I will try to explain how the planes could have cut through the exterior steel columns. I believe there were no planes, but it's always best to have many options on the table until it's known for sure.

If the floors where the planes impacted were missing, then only the exterior steel columns would have been the resistance. Could a jet plane really cut through that? Yes, possibly, with enormous momentum making huge amounts of energy being released at impact, which made the whole plane slice through the steel like a laser sword cutting through butter, which is what the videos of the impacts show.
Click to expand...

Ladies and gentlemen, the no-floors theory.
 
Anders Lindman said:
The planes, if real, had an enormous speed at impact. Precise control like that could be done through computer control of planes perhaps.
Click to expand...

In the case of the north tower palne it was in a flat trajectory for dozens of miles heading towards a struture that extended well above all others nearby and was actually wider than the plane itself. There is no reason whatsoever that any pilot could not hit it. Its like hitting the proverbial barn door.

In the case of the second tower we just have to acknowledge that a person who has absolutly no concern about their own well being in the near future nor that of the aircraft or other persons on that aircraft is not going to be constrained by safety concerns. Once again then there is no reason whatsoever that the impact as seen could not be accomplished by anyone with a modicum of flight training.

To say otherwise is to display complete ignorance of the subject.
 
jaydeehess said:
In the case of the north tower palne it was in a flat trajectory for dozens of miles heading towards a struture that extended well above all others nearby and was actually wider than the plane itself. There is no reason whatsoever that any pilot could not hit it. Its like hitting the proverbial barn door.

In the case of the second tower we just have to acknowledge that a person who has absolutly no concern about their own well being in the near future nor that of the aircraft or other persons on that aircraft is not going to be constrained by safety concerns. Once again then there is no reason whatsoever that the impact as seen could not be accomplished by anyone with a modicum of flight training.

To say otherwise is to display complete ignorance of the subject.
Click to expand...

But I have read statements from Pilots for 9/11 Truth who say that it would be difficult to fly like that. Just the precise tilting of the wings, very similar for both impacts, seems like a hard thing to do at that speed for an inexperienced pilot.
 
Anders Lindman said:
But I have read statements from Pilots for 9/11 Truth who say that it would be difficult to fly like that.
Click to expand...

"Difficult" does not mean "impossible".

Anders Lindman said:
Just the precise tilting of the wings, very similar for both impacts, seems like a hard thing to do at that speed for an inexperienced pilot.
Click to expand...

...Honestly, I have no idea what you're even arguing here. Do you think that, if this was a conspiracy, they deliberately had both planes impact at the same angle?

Why?
 
Pure Argent said:
...Honestly, I have no idea what you're even arguing here. Do you think that, if this was a conspiracy, they deliberately had both planes impact at the same angle?

Why?
Click to expand...

They wanted that kind of angle to make the office fires big enough. They also used thermite, but even with that they needed to weaken several floors.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom