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WTC7 - The fires failed Girder 44-79

BasqueArch

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Jan 11, 2009
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I received TS' 5 FEA color slides re the walk-off of the WTC7 girder from its seat. He claims the girder did not buckle. His slides show the girder buckled.

Not shown due to his incomplete FEA, is that the girder bottom flange was pushed off >6.5 inches, past its supporting seat, by the beams.
The girder failed due to fire not CD.
 
I received TS' 5 FEA color slides re the walk-off of the WTC7 girder from its seat. He claims the girder did not buckle. His slides show the girder buckled.

Not shown due to his incomplete FEA, is that the girder bottom flange was pushed off >6.5 inches, past its supporting seat, by the beams.
The girder failed due to fire not CD.

No, the slides do not show the girder buckled. It is deflected. The beams keep it from rotating and for lateral torsional buckling and vertical load capacity to be lost the beam or girder needs to rotate. NIST used a rule of rotation equal to half the flange width for saying the beam or girder lost its load carrying capacity. That did not occur in the FEA I sent you the results of.

Additionally, the girder gets locked up against the flange of column 79 due to thermal expansion and is unable to traverse westward. So I don't see how you got the notion that the bottom flange moved more than 6.5 inches. On top of that the beams can't expand more than about 4.75 inches no matter what the temperature was due to sagging induced shortening becoming greater than expansion at a little over 600 degrees C. Then there are the flange stiffeners which would require about 9 inches of westward travel before the girder would come off the seat.

There is no chance that girder came off its seat under any fire heating scenario.
 
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Now that Tony's FEA has been proven to be impossible, how will he defame innocent people in the future?


:D
 
I received TS' 5 FEA color slides re the walk-off of the WTC7 girder from its seat. He claims the girder did not buckle. His slides show the girder buckled.

Not shown due to his incomplete FEA, is that the girder bottom flange was pushed off >6.5 inches, past its supporting seat, by the beams.
The girder failed due to fire not CD.

Who produced these slides? Can they be posted here?
 
As mod:

Since we just closed a thread on this very topic, you may be assured that this thread will be watched closely.

I thought about starting a general technical discussion thread since, lately, when technical discussions come up in a thread they're usually off topic.
 
No, the slides do not show the girder buckled. It is deflected. The beams keep it from rotating and for lateral torsional buckling and vertical load capacity to be lost the beam or girder needs to rotate. NIST used a rule of rotation equal to half the flange width for saying the beam or girder lost its load carrying capacity. That did not occur in the FEA I sent you the results of.

Additionally, the girder gets locked up against the flange of column 79 due to thermal expansion and is unable to traverse westward. So I don't see how you got the notion that the bottom flange moved more than 6.5 inches. On top of that the beams can't expand more than about 4.75 inches no matter what the temperature was due to sagging induced shortening becoming greater than expansion at a little over 600 degrees C. Then there are the flange stiffeners which would require about 9 inches of westward travel before the girder would come off the seat.

There is no chance that girder came off its seat under any fire heating scenario.

Other engineers show this is wrong.
TS’ FEA color gradient displacement slides show:
[1] The girder expanded along its length and was restrained by cols. 79 and 44. = buckled
[2] (Measurements rounded to one decimal point.) The girder is shown with a west displacement of 0.1 to 2.6 inches for a distance of ~ 1 foot from the trapped girder end at C79 and by the flange at C44. The rest of the girder is shown having moved west by 3.8 to 6.3 inches. = buckled. (due to 0.1 to 6.3 inches horizontal differential)
[3] The 3D graphics show the girder rotated about its vertical axis and deformed about its horizontal axis. = buckled.

“Restrained beams, when exposed to fire, develop significant restraint forces and these forces
can alter the response of the beam. The development of fire induced forces, and gradual
softening of steel resulting from high temperature, produce large deflections in the beam.
Strength failure occurs in the beam either when the capacity of the connections is exceeded due to large rotations, or when a plastic mechanism develops in the beam after undergoing large deflections.
There have been limited studies on the behavior of restrained beams under fire conditions.
Fire resistance tests on axially restrained steel beams revealed the development of significant axial force and large deflections due to restraint [1-3].” Pp.106

(Thanks to Sunstealer’s link of Structures in Fire - Proceedings of the Sixth International Conference. 123 papers selected for publication,2010)
http://www.egr.msu.edu/sif10/flyer of conf/SiF10 Conference Proceedings.pdf

“….. As steel temperature continues to increase with fire exposure time, softening of steel causes larger deflections and rotations until the first plastic hinge develop in the beam. The plastic hinge, which forms at the location of maximum bending moment in the beam, causes sudden increase in deflection (see Fig.1(c)), which leads to reduction and then reversal of the axial force in the beam from compressive to tensile force.
The beam enters a catenary phase in Stage III when the fire-induced compressive axial force vanishes as shown in Fig. 1(b). In the catenary phase, tensile force develops in the beam and the load bearing mechanism gradually shifts form flexural to cable (tensile) until failure occurs by rupture of the beam (or in the connections). When the beam undergoes the above three stages, it is assumed that the connections continue to perform elastically. Therefore, fire-induced forces and rotations in the beam must not exceed the connections capacity.”
P. 107. – ibid.

TS’ slides show the girder buckled. The slides show the horizontal displacement but not the large vertical deflections of the girder. The girder was pushed and twisted past the seat by the expanding and sagging beams or the girder fractured and failed.
The weight of the buckled beams, with a 20” deflection (NIST), and whose horizontal axes were above the girder’s horizontal axis, torqued the girder towards the beams. The girder’s bottom flange rotated past the already 6.3” bottom flange lateral displacement.

There is no chance that girder came off its seat under any fire heating scenario.
Heated beams pushed the girder west 6.3”, the girder expanded, restrained, buckled, greatly deflected. The 20” sagged beams twisted the top of the girder towards them and the bottom flange away additionally >0.2”, =>6.5” , >half the 12” seat, girder fell off. Or the girder ruptured (above) since it was not restrained by the failed bolts.

Fire caused the failure of Girder 44-79, not CD.
 
Oh, btw. Tony's slides show columns 79 and 44 deflected 0.1 - 1.3" west.
 
Oh, btw. Tony's slides show columns 79 and 44 deflected 0.1 - 1.3" west.

Of course, NIST states that column 79 deflected several inches to the EAST. And, with it, the girder seat, of course.

Tony's response: "Did not, did not!"

And I'll bet a bag of doughnuts that Tony doesn't use material properties that include creep in his analysis either.

Further, I'll wager that Tony doesn't consider the time-temperature relationship of all the various components.

It is UNDENIABLE that, when NIST was performing their preliminary analyses to see what had to be tracked, they had a model that was 1000x more detailed than any that Tony can produce.

And yet, when NIST did the same thing that Tony had claimed, that is: they merely set a couple of components to fixed temperatures (600°C for girders & beams, 500°C for columns, IIRC), they got the WRONG failure modes. NIST got buckling of girders & beams, and no walk-off.

When NIST ran the CORRECT FEA, using the time-temperature dependence that their fire sim program produced & including creep, ONLY then they got girder walk-off.

Why does Tony think that his grossly simplified, static temp FEA is going to prove or disprove walk-off?
 
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Hmmm....what about 1/4th of the upper 1/3rd of WTC 1 crashing into the building? Would that help unseat the girder? hmmm?

Probably, but as nothing like that happened it's pretty academic.
 
Probably, but as nothing like that happened it's pretty academic.

My fractions are perhaps a bit embelished, but the idea is the same. Several 3 1/2 to 5 ton pannels smashing into WTC 7 with the force from the WTC 1 collapse. That impact, as well as starting the fires, could have started the column walk off as well, could it not?

 
My fractions are perhaps a bit embelished, but the idea is the same. Several 3 1/2 to 5 ton pannels smashing into WTC 7 with the force from the WTC 1 collapse. That impact, as well as starting the fires, could have started the column walk off as well, could it not?


Nope. Timing's all wrong. Location's all wrong. Read the NIST report executive summary in NCSTAR1A. Gives a concise overview in just a few paragraphs.
 
Of course, NIST states that column 79 deflected several inches to the EAST. And, with it, the girder seat, of course.

Tony's response: "Did not, did not!"

And I'll bet a bag of doughnuts that Tony doesn't use material properties that include creep in his analysis either.

Further, I'll wager that Tony doesn't consider the time-temperature relationship of all the various components.

It is UNDENIABLE that, when NIST was performing their preliminary analyses to see what had to be tracked, they had a model that was 1000x more detailed than any that Tony can produce.

And yet, when NIST did the same thing that Tony had claimed, that is: they merely set a couple of components to fixed temperatures (600°C for girders & beams, 500°C for columns, IIRC), they got the WRONG failure modes. NIST got buckling of girders & beams, and no walk-off.

When NIST ran the CORRECT FEA, using the time-temperature dependence that their fire sim program produced & including creep, ONLY then they got girder walk-off.

Why does Tony think that his grossly simplified, static temp FEA is going to prove or disprove walk-off?

Just to show how much you are simply talking out of your behind here, when claiming the NIST model was 1,000 times more detailed than my model, it is interesting to note that the NIST FEA did not even use the correct support plate configuration under the girder seat at column 79. My model used the right support plate configuration, as it is shown on the recently released drawings. The NIST FEA also did not include the three beam stubs from the north exterior wall to the northmost beam framing into the girder. My model included these three beam stubs.

The NIST report provides no substantiation for column 79 being pushed several inches to the east and I have shown you why it could not occur. The reason is that the girders on the west side of column 79 could only push on the column if the beams framing into them from the north and south had their shear studs broken and even if they did, and the girder was free to move, it would have buckled before it could push the column more than a half inch to the east.

As for the actual time-temperature relationship from the fire simulation shown in the NIST report, of about 350 degrees C for the beams and 225 degrees C for the girder at the four hour point for Case B when the alleged failure would have had to occur, there is no chance that would somehow cause the girder to fall off its seat in any way, as there is not enough movement by either the beams or the girder. I did an analysis of that case also. The use of 600 degrees C for the beams and 500 degrees C for the girder is a worst possible case and even then there is no chance the girder could have fallen off the seat.

The NIST report just makes the claim that the girder fell off its seat. They do not provide any calculations or analysis to substantiate it. When asked for calculations and analysis to substantiate the claim, the NIST director (who is a political appointee) refused the request with the excuse that releasing that information might jeopardize public safety. Isn't that interesting?

Unfortunately, you seem to have no problem making unsupported biased comments, which in my experience are usually contradicted by the actual details.
 
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The NIST report just makes the claim that the girder fell off its seat. They do not provide any calculations or analysis to substantiate it. When asked for calculations and analysis to substantiate the claim, the NIST director (who is a political appointee) refused the request with the excuse that releasing that information might jeopardize public safety. Isn't that interesting?

This is it in a nutshell.

You would think on a skeptics forum there would be some skepticism in situations such as this. Instead, blind faith causes supporters to simply make a statement, claim it as twoof, and berate any dissent.

Your concise descriptions and exhaustive analysis are appreciated, but it is disconcerting how easily hypotheticals without any evidence are so easily accepted amongst these so-called debunkers and skeptics.
 
Just like controlled demolition is so easily accepted without any evidence for it whatsoever?
 

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