Empire State Building shooting

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Use of guns did allow us to free ourselves 100-200 years sooner than most European nations. Most of it within living memory.

You take the good with the bad.

Unless you were black. Or actually a native. In which case the settler's guns brought you slavery and genocide respectively.

 

[ponderingturtle]

According to this article,


I read elsewhere that the shooter had an 8-round pistol: 5 shots were fired into his target (whom he murdered), 2 shots were fired at the police, and 1 round was left in the weapon.

So the police officers shot 16 rounds, killing 1 and injuring 9, while the gunman shot 7 rounds, killing 1.

This sucks. I wonder how police departments could determine which of their officers are likely to forget all training and freak out during an actual violent encounter on the street?

Who says they did? People suck at shooting other people, especially when they are worried about being shot at the same time.

 

[mhaze]

You can get triggers on ebay for £10.99. What idiots!

the police department REGULATION requires carry guns to be modified with the 12 lb trigger. Stock guns are not acceptable, probably would get someone fired.

This rule made by the police dept is idiotic.

Seems to me they should do away with that rule, then change to 40 cal, or even 45. Lot easier to "spray and pray" with the 9 mm, and that's behavior that isn't desirable in the hands of police. Might improve some of this. Might not.

 

[WildCat]

the police department REGULATION requires carry guns to be modified with the 12 lb trigger. Stock guns are not acceptable, probably would get someone fired.

Woosh goes the joke right over your head...

 

[kevsta]

Woosh goes the joke right over your head...

jokes are fine, random NYPD bullets are a bit much

 

[Rasmus]

jokes are fine, random NYPD bullets are a bit much

as long as they are over my head....

 

[catsmate]

As a gun owner: suicides, like homicides have the same issue with guns: without them both would continue to exist, but with guns they are a hell of a lot easier.

Exactly. Firearms make impulsive homicide/suicide easier; killing yourself/others by other methods require more time and effort, possibly giving the opportunity to cool off.

 

[Beerina]

Accuracy on the range is pretty much not a determining factor WRT accuracy when returning fire on a living target. It's one of those things that there are no good solutions, just some that are more or less bad.

I'm willing to bet the 12 pound trigger is in result of lawsuits of "accidental" shootings, emphasis on the quotes. So the whole concept is doubly pointless going through the motions.

 

[mhaze]

I'm willing to bet the 12 pound trigger is in result of lawsuits of "accidental" shootings, emphasis on the quotes. So the whole concept is doubly pointless going through the motions.

Well, yah.

To go into court on the premise that the cops were wrong to "just have the stock gun" would be kind of weird. Maybe that case could be won, but there would be mountains of evidence that the gun manufacturer knew what they were doing in picking such and such a trigger pull.

As a decision it positively reeks of administrative and committee and ignorance.

The history would be quite interesting to know about.

 

[SumDood]

The scandal here is that we could reduce the number of workplace shootings if people were allowed to bring guns to the office. This only makes sense because you never known when some employee will suddenly snap.

Can someone explain to me why some people think this is a good idea? One person starts shooting in a crowded environment. Two people pull out their guns and shoot the first gunman. Four other people with their guns out see two people with guns shooting the first gunman and open fire on them, etc etc. How is that a preferable scenario?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Can someone explain to me why some people think this is a good idea? One person starts shooting in a crowded environment. Two people pull out their guns and shoot the first gunman. Four other people with their guns out see two people with guns shooting the first gunman and open fire on them, etc etc. How is that a preferable scenario?

And think of all the innocent bystanders they could hit.

Should concealed cary people need to carry collateral damage insurance for if their stray bullets in a violent altercation injure someone?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Can someone explain to me why some people think this is a good idea? One person starts shooting in a crowded environment. Two people pull out their guns and shoot the first gunman. Four other people with their guns out see two people with guns shooting the first gunman and open fire on them, etc etc. How is that a preferable scenario?

I believe some people think the threat that lots of people may be armed will stop people from going on sprees. Of course, that won't apply to the insane because they don't care about consequences or can't predict them accurately.

I'm always amazed at disgruntled workers going on shooting sprees. They'd be so much more effective, and much likelier to get away with it, if they just poisoned the breakroom coffee. It's sad when our maniacs care more about noise and attention than in maximizing their totals.

 

[mhaze]

I believe some people think the threat that lots of people may be armed will stop people from going on sprees. Of course, that won't apply to the insane because they don't care about consequences or can't predict them accurately. ......

False. Insane people have their own patterns of behavior. Those vary according to the style of neurosis or psychosis. Many of them do care about consequences, and many can predict consequences very accurately.

 

[TragicMonkey]

False. Insane people have their own patterns of behavior. Those vary according to the style of neurosis or psychosis. Many of them do care about consequences, and many can predict consequences very accurately.

What I was driving at was that you can't work out in advance how crazy people might think and then make plans accordingly.

 

[mhaze]

What I was driving at was that you can't work out in advance how crazy people might think and then make plans accordingly.

Having worked in a mental hospital, including directly handling criminally insane of the worst sort, I disagree.

I've had to do just what you are claiming can't be done.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Having worked in a mental hospital, including directly handling criminally insane of the worst sort, I disagree.

I've had to do just what you are claiming can't be done.

So if the Secret Service had consulted you, you could have told them that casting Jodie Foster in a movie would lead to Reagan getting shot? Impressive.

 

[mhaze]

So if the Secret Service had consulted you, you could have told them that casting Jodie Foster in a movie would lead to Reagan getting shot? Impressive.

Many mental disorders result in more predictable behavior, not less. Some are well known, like obsessive compulsive behavior.

Yes, we can predict that someone who has fear of elevators will, uh, be scared of elevators.

But your example does not disprove my comment. Properly phrased, your assertion is something like this:

To the extent that human behavior is unpredictable, is the behavior of "crazy people" more, or less unpredictable than the norm?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Video of the shooting.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Many mental disorders result in more predictable behavior, not less. Some are well known, like obsessive compulsive behavior.

Yes, we can predict that someone who has fear of elevators will, uh, be scared of elevators.

But your example does not disprove my comment. Properly phrased, your assertion is something like this:

To the extent that human behavior is unpredictable, is the behavior of "crazy people" more, or less unpredictable than the norm?

Properly phrased, my assertion was "I'm sticking this in about crazy people because being this particular messageboard, somebody will ignore my main point which is about deterrence with 'nuh uh, what about crazy people?' so I might as well mention up front they'd be an exception because I really don't want somebody to go off on a tangent and have it be my fault." I don't want to talk about crazy people at all. My point was that some people believe the threat of commonly-armed citizens will deter violence because people will expect more armed resistance. I'm heartily sorry I ever attempted to make a point at all, much less try to skip the inevitable pedantic parenthetical asides endemic to this particular place. As I rightly predicted, it led to an annoying derail.

 

[mhaze]

....I don't want to talk about crazy people at all. .....

Okay. Right or wrong, I took you literally. No problem.

....My point was that some people believe the threat of commonly-armed citizens will deter violence because people will expect more armed resistance. .....

Yes, I think that is generally true.

I seem to recall statistics support that. Of course that would be more as to the effects of concealed carry on rape, muggings, robberies, stuff like that, rather than the mass killings.

Also anecdotal evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldi1mgVgsAc