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FBI 9/11 Investigations

When did the FBI know the 2 guys were in the states? When? Date? Are you as good as CBS? Was it before 911?

The FBI HQ found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US on August 22, 2001. At this time the FBI HQ knew that these al Qaeda terrorists were inside of the US in order to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that would kill many Americans. This information was know by FBI IOS HQ Agent Dina Corsi, FBI ITOS Deputy Chief Tom Wilshire and FBI IOS Agent Margaret Gillespie. Just after meeting with Gillespie, Wilshire and Corsi, about this information, this information went to the rest of the CIA, to the FBI, unknown where it went inside of the FBI, and to the State Department.

This information was deliberately kept secret from the FBI Cole bombing investigators by these agents and the CIA, as was the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting with bin Attash, mastermind of the Cole bombing, in January 2000, actually planning the bombing of the USS Cole.
 
Reading between the lines of all the reported facts it looks like high level US officials told US intelligence to back off Saudi links to al Qaeda. After the attacks the very same high level officials pretended that they had no idea that such conduct would lead to something bad and besides (they told the public) al Qaeda was an enemy of the Saudi government so of course there were no intentional associations between al Qaeda and the Saudi government.

This explanation best fits all the facts. Translated into a talking point fit for public consumption this explanation became known as bureaucratic inefficiency.

To date none of the US intelligence officials involved in the al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar withholding have seen fit to explain their conduct to the public. We haven't heard a word from Rich Blee or Rod Middleton who ran Bin Laden units at the CIA and FBI.

Here is an email address for Dina Corsi: [email protected]. I would love her to explain what happened at the UBLU in the lead up to 9/11. I realized the chances of her responding to an email from a stranger are zero. I have contacted US media to try to understand why they have not used their clout to get interviews with people like Blee, Middleton and Corsi. They don't feel any need to respond to a member of the public.
 
The FBI HQ found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US on August 22, 2001. ...
2001, not 2002? oops, you said...


...
This information was deliberately kept secret from the FBI ...


The FBI HQ found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US on August 22, 2001. ...

Secret? Why were they put on the FBI terror watch-list on the 24th, 18 days before 911? You said it was secret they were terrorists, or what?


Please explain why your algorithm for KNOWING the future does not prevent accidents. I KNOW there is going to be a fatal accident today, why does your algorithm fail to stop it from happening? I KNOW, why can't I stop it from happening? Now we have arrest everyone who KNEW there was going to be fatal accidents today. ?
 
2001, not 2002? oops, you said...







Secret? Why were they put on the FBI terror watch-list on the 24th, 18 days before 911? You said it was secret they were terrorists, or what?

The Story that is called Straight.
 
2001, not 2002? oops, you said...

Secret? Why were they put on the FBI terror watch-list on the 24th, 18 days before 911? You said it was secret they were terrorists, or what?
?

No I have it exactly right, the date was August 22, 2001.

They were put on the State Department Tipoff watchlist on August 24, 2001 because of Margaret Gillespie’s alert sent to the State Department, an alert that went through out the CIA on August 22, 2001. Unfortunately the Tipoff watch list is not used to check for passengers getting on a US commercial airliner.

I said:

"This information was deliberately kept secret from the FBI Cole bombing investigators by these (ITOS FBI HQ) agents and the CIA, as was the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting with bin Attash, mastermind of the Cole bombing, in January 2000, actually planning the bombing of the USS Cole."

The FBI Cole bombing investigators were not given this information until after the attacks on 9/11. Had they been given this information, they never would have allowed FBI HQ ITOS Agent Dina Corsi to shut down their criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi on August 28, 2001. This was exactly the information they needed in order to start a criminal investigation for these al Qaeda terrorists. It is also clear that is exactly why this information had been hidden from them by both the CIA and FBI HQ.
 
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Reading between the lines of all the reported facts it looks like high level US officials told US intelligence to back off Saudi links to al Qaeda.
Very specific fantasy presented as fact.

After the attacks the very same high level officials pretended that they had no idea that such conduct would lead to something bad
Which you know, how?

besides (they told the public)
Who is "they?"

al Qaeda was an enemy of the Saudi government so of course there were no intentional associations between al Qaeda and the Saudi government.
Given that al Qaeda is an enemy of the Saudi government and actively seeks to overthrow it, your point?

This explanation best fits all the facts. Translated into a talking point fit for public consumption this explanation became known as bureaucratic inefficiency.
No, this fantasy best conforms to your pre-arrived POV. You might want to look up some of your more common logical fallacies, "Black Swan Theory" for one.
 
Again a rather inconvenient truth.

The CIA and FBI HQ knew about Mihdhar and Hazmi for 21 months prior to the attacks on 9/11, and then even knew a huge al Qaeda attack was about to take place inside of the US and then found out when Mihdhar and Hazmi were discovered inside of the US that they were here in order to take part in this massive al Qaeda attack that would cause mass casualties. Then these two agencies shut down the FBI criminal investigation of FBI Agent Steve Bongardt of Mihdhar and Hazmi and even blocked the FBI criminal investigation by Harry Samit of Zacarias Moussaoui.

What has any of this got to do with hind sight?

If you know huge al Qaeda attack is just about to take place inside of the US and then know that two al Qaeda terrorists, Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al Hazmi, are inside of the US in order to take part in this huge al Qaeda attack, and then you deliberately shut down the one FBI criminal in investigation that could have found these terrorists before they carried out this attack, how is that hind sight?

It seems to me that you have stretched the definition of hind sight all out of proportion.

Even the FBI agents who wanted to search and find Mihdhar and Hazmi before they had time to carried out this huge attack told the FBI HQ agents who were shutting down their criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, that these two al Qaeda terrorists were inside of the US in order to carry out a al Qaeda terrorist attack, and that people will die if their investigation was shut down.

Again, how is that hind sight?


Clinton was to busy with a dress and a cigar to care?
 
beachnut said:
The FBI HQ found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US on August 22, 2001. ...
2001, not 2002? oops, you said...


...
This information was deliberately kept secret from the FBI ...


The FBI HQ found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US on August 22, 2001. ...

Secret? Why were they put on the FBI terror watch-list on the 24th, 18 days before 911? You said it was secret they were terrorists, or what?

...


No I have it exactly right, the date was August 22, 2001.

They were put on the State Department Tipoff watchlist on August 24, 2001 because of Margaret Gillespie’s alert sent to the State Department, an alert that went through out the CIA on August 22, 2001. Unfortunately the Tipoff watch list is not used to check for passengers getting on a US commercial airliner.

I said:

"This information was deliberately kept secret from the FBI Cole bombing investigators by these (ITOS FBI HQ) agents and the CIA, as was the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting with bin Attash, mastermind of the Cole bombing, in January 2000, actually planning the bombing of the USS Cole."

The FBI Cole bombing investigators were not given this information until after the attacks on 9/11. Had they been given this information, they never would have allowed FBI HQ ITOS Agent Dina Corsi to shut down their criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi on August 28, 2001. This was exactly the information they needed in order to start a criminal investigation for these al Qaeda terrorists. It is also clear that is exactly why this information had been hidden from them by both the CIA and FBI HQ.

The FBI don't have access to the terror watchlist? :)
 
The FBI don't have access to the terror watchlist? :)

There are a number of watch lists maintained by the US government. The State Department Tipoff list was intended to alert INS when certain people entered the US. But Mihdhar and Hazmi were already in the US, so it made no sense to add them to this list. These names should have been put on a no fly list for people making airline reservations.

I don't think the FBI agents on the Cole bombing were looking at the Tipoff list every day or at all. This list was for INS. If the CIA and FBI HQ had the names of two al Qaeda terrorists and knew that these al Qaeda terrorists had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing at the January 2000 al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur, why did they just not turn this information over immediately to the FBI Cole bombing investigators so these FBI investigators could immediately start a FBI criminal investigation to find these terrorists before they had time to carry out another al Qaeda terrorists attack, this time inside of the US?

This makes no sense.

And what makes even less sense is why did the FBI HQ, with the full knowledge of the CIA, shut down the FBI criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi when both agencies knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US only in order to take part in a al Qaeda terrorist attack?

This makes even less sense.

If two al Qaeda terrorists are inside of the US, and the CIA and FBI HQ know these al Qaeda terrorists are going to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that will kill many Americans, and then the CIA and FBI HQ shut down the one criminal investigation that could have found these terrorists before they carried out this attack, then it seems reasonable to assume that these agencies knew their actions would result in allowing the al Qaeda terrorists to carry out an attack inside of the US that would kill many Americans.

This is what this set of facts clearly show.

I cannot make this any clearer.
 
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Hi Paloalto,
Had the terrorists been arrested, what charges would have been made against them and what evidence would have been produced ?

A short answer please and please don't repeat what you have already posted.
 
Soufan had asked the CIA for any information on a al Qaeda planning meeting in southeast Asia or Kuala Lumpur and on Walid bin Attash at least three times and was told that the CIA had no information on any of this. But it turns out that they had copious information on bin Attash and this meeting and the fact that bin Attash had been at this meeting with Mihdhar and Hazmi actually planning the Cole bombing.

Was this bureaucratic FUBAR or the crime of withholding material information from an ongoing criminal FBI investigation.

Tom Wilshire was denied permission twice in July 2001 by his CIA managers Blee, Black and Tenet, from giving the CIA information obtained from the surveillance of the Kuala Lumpur meeting, to the FBI Cole bombing investigators, information that bin Attash had been at the Kuala Lumpur meeting with Mihdhar and Hazmi actually planning the Cole bombing, even though he worked at the FBI HQ as a high level FBI manager in charge of all FBI investigations of al Qaeda terrorists in the world.

Was this bureaucratic FUBAR or the crime of withholding material information from an ongoing criminal FBI investigation.

Both Corsi and Middleton also knew that bin Attash had been at this Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting with Mihdhar and Hazmi actually planning the Cole bombing. Yet not only did they with hold this information from FBI Agent Steve Bongardt, but they shut his investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi down when these FBI HQ agents and managers knew a huge al Qaeda attack was about to take place inside of the US and knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were in the US in order to take part in this attack.

Was this bureaucratic FUBAR or the crime of withholding material information from an ongoing criminal FBI investigation.

When you look at the facts and what people knew, and what they did with this information, with all due respect, your argument that this was bureaucratic FUBAR just does not add up.

I never said bureaucratic FUBAR couldn't be criminal.I was questioning the motives behind it. That's the conspiracy we're talking about. I think a lot of people should have been put in prison. It was ridiculous what went on. BUT THE MOTIVE WAS NOT TO ALLOW AQ TO KILL 3000. They had no clue. You connected those dots. It's a shame they didn't. Your hindsight is perfect but your interpretation of it sucks.
 
Hi Paloalto,
Had the terrorists been arrested, what charges would have been made against them and what evidence would have been produced ?

A short answer please and please don't repeat what you have already posted.

Good question.

The pilots could have been charged with being part of a al Qaeda criminal conspiracy to carry out terrorists attacks inside of the US. The German government had evidence that they had been recruited by al Qaeda in Germany, by Mohammed Zammer, a al Qaeda recruiter. The fact they all had training on large commercial airliner simulators, several on B767/757 simulators would have been additional evidence they were connected to a plot to hijack the airliners they were on.

The non-pilot terrorists could have been charged with the same thing but the US government had very little evidence against the non-pilot terrorists other than they were on the same flights as the al Qaeda terrorist pilots and many were connected to the al Qaeda paymaster in the UAE, who was connected by phone calls to Ramzi bin al-Shibh in Hamburg Germany. But there may be much more evidence I am unaware of that may not be in the public domain.

Once FBI Agent Harry Samit had information that bin Al-Shibh sent money to Zacarias Moussaoui, he was able to tie “most” of the terrorists in this plot to the al Qaeda paymaster in the UAE. He was not allowed by the FBI to obtain this receipt until after the attacks on 9/11 had taken place.
 
I don't think your producing enough evidence to put people in prison for any length of time.

The simplicity of their crime was their success. No crime with evidence was committed until they had boarded the planes and taken off, by this time it was to late for anything to be done.
 
There are a number of watch lists maintained by the US government. The State Department Tipoff list was intended to alert INS when certain people entered the US. But Mihdhar and Hazmi were already in the US, so it made no sense to add them to this list. These names should have been put on a no fly list for people making airline reservations.


Ummmm, excuse me...

What "No Fly List" before 9/11/01?
 
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I never said bureaucratic FUBAR couldn't be criminal. I was questioning the motives behind it. That's the conspiracy we're talking about. I think a lot of people should have been put in prison. It was ridiculous what went on. BUT THE MOTIVE WAS NOT TO ALLOW AQ TO KILL 3000. They had no clue. You connected those dots. It's a shame they didn't. Your hindsight is perfect but your interpretation of it sucks.

Let me repeat:

Tom Wilshire was denied permission twice in July 2001, on July 13, 2001, and on July 23, 2001, by his CIA managers Blee, Black and Tenet, from giving the CIA information obtained from the surveillance of the Kuala Lumpur meeting, to the FBI Cole bombing investigators, information that bin Attash had been at the Kuala Lumpur meeting with Mihdhar and Hazmi and Attash, mastermind of the USS Cole bombing, actually planning the Cole bombing, even though Wilshire worked at the FBI HQ as a high level FBI manager in charge of all FBI investigations of al Qaeda terrorists in the world.

The is after Blee, Black and Tenet have already gone to the White House on July 10, 2001, to a meeting deliberately kept secret by the 9/11 Commission, to tell Rice, Clarke, and Hadley that a massive al Qaeda attack was about to take place, likely to the US, that would cause mass US casualties.

The CIA and FBI HQ knew about this huge al Qaeda attack. The CIA knew it had refused permission to allow Wilshire to give this information to the FBI criminal investigators on the Cole bombing, and even knew that this would prevent these investigators, and FBI Agent Steve Bongardt from starting a any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, two al Qaeda terrorists that the CIA and FBI HQ knew will take part in this al Qaeda attack. They knew that this was the very evidence that Bongardt would need in order to be able to start any criminal investigation of these two al Qaeda terrorists. Without some evidence of a substantial Federal crime, Bongardt could not start any criminal investigation for these two. When the information was given to the FBI HQ, Corsi and Wilshire, and the CIA, Blee, Black, and Tenet, on August 22, 2001 that both Mihdhar and Hazmi are inside of the US in order to take part in this attack, these high level managers at both agencies knew these terrorists were inside of the US in order to take part in a huge al Qaeda terrorists attack. Yet Corsi and Middleton, who were supervised by Wilshire, shut down Bongardt’s criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi.

The CIA and FBI HQ may not have known that 3000 people would be killed in this attack, or even the exact details of this attack, but they did know the names of at least two of the al Qaeda terrorists who be involved, information that could have been used by Bongardt and his team to not only link directly to many of the other al Qaeda terrorist involved in this attack but to prevent these attacks.
 
I don't think your producing enough evidence to put people in prison for any length of time.

The simplicity of their crime was their success. No crime with evidence was committed until they had boarded the planes and taken off, by this time it was to late for anything to be done.

Mihdhar and Hazmi were already linked to the Cole bombing and the east Africa bombings and were linked to many of the other terrorists on those 9/11 flights. Mihdhar and Hazmi and many of the other terrorists were also all linked to al Qaeda. That should have been enough had this information not been kept secret from the FBI criminal investigators on the Cole bombing and the east Africa bombings.
 
Ummmm, excuse me...

What "No Fly List" before 9/11/01?

The FAA had a no fly list before 9/11. One of the people on that list was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed., the master mind of the 9/11 attacks. But by June 12, 2001, according to the 9/11 Commission Report the CIA knew that KSM was recruiting many al Qaeda terrorists for a terrorist attack inside of the US and knew that these new recruits were being sent to the US in the summer on 2001 in order to link up with then other al Qaeda terrorists already inside of the US to carry out an attack that the CUA already had been warned about.

The CIA also knew that Nawaf al-Hazmi was already in the US on March 5, 2000 and that his travel companion, Khalid al-Mihdhar, had a multi-entry visa for the US in order to join Hazmi in a al Qaeda terrorist attack inside of the US.

So if KSM was already barred from any US flight these other al Qaeda terrorist should also have been barred from any flight. On August 22, 2001 the CIA and FBI knew that both Mihdhar and Hazmi, were in the US in order to take part in this attack. These terrorists should have been put on the FAA no fly list.
 
There was "a FBI no fly list", 16 people were on it on 911. Not an issue, and not support for your ability to know 911 was a crime before it was a crime.

You think people can know who is going to do what in the future. Good one. There was a movie with they arrested murderers before they murdered. Fiction.
 
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There was "a FBI no fly list", 16 people were on it on 911. Not an issue, and not support for your ability to know 911 was a crime before it was a crime.

You think people can know who is going to do what in the future. Good one. There was a movie with they arrested murderers before they murdered. Fiction.

It was the charter of the CIA to prevent another Pearl Harbor, and the FBI argued many times for an increase in their budget so they would have the funds necessary to prevent a terrorist attack inside of the US.

Both of this agencies were in effect chartered to stop a terrorists attack before it took place, you might say a terrorist attack in the future.

So your logic that "You think people can know who is going to do what in the future" is refuted by the CIA and FBI themselves, this is exactly what they were claiming they were trying to do but failed doing on 9/11.

HELLO!
 
It was the charter of the CIA to prevent another Pearl Harbor, and the FBI argued many times for an increase in their budget so they would have the funds necessary to prevent a terrorist attack inside of the US. ...
You make up the charter, then add gossip.

... Both of this agencies were in effect chartered to stop a terrorists attack before it took place, you might say a terrorist attack in the future. ...
You believe you can stop things in the future, 100 percent accuracy?

Let see, OH MY GOD, the budget for knives, FBI should have see the BIG expenditure for 19 knives as the RED FLAG for terror attack!

Hijacking? OMG, should have known all hijackings were really practice to use a WMD. Yes, I would say something with the heat energy of 315 TONS of TNT (jet fuel) and the KE of 2,000 pound bomb, is a WMD, waiting for use, the price of First Class ticket.

The USA was the best place to learn to fly, no wonder there were so many RED flags for pilots taking lessons. Wowzer.



... So your logic that "You think people can know who is going to do what in the future" is refuted by the CIA and FBI themselves, this is exactly what they were claiming they were trying to do but failed doing on 9/11.

HELLO!

You are full of nonsense. You never had an accident? You know the future. BTW, you will have an accident, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Sorry, you failed.
 

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