General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Nick Terry]

Problem for you Nick is that it is more than just a few witness testimonies. There are literally HUNDREDS of "witness testimony" that are LITERALLY good for a good laugh.

Prove it then. I doubt you could even name 50 such testimonies.

Since there are easily more than 100,000 Holocaust testimonies extant (52,000 in the Shoah Foundation video archive alone), then you'd need quite a few thousand examples to create a really meaningful trend of any kind whatsoever.

Sensible people conclude maybe people misremembered or indeed only heard two shots (not loud enough) or maybe indeed even four or up to six shots (echo, acoustics) and are technically correct answers as to what they heard too.

It is a false analogy. That's all I can say.

No, it's not a false analogy. Pretty much every dimension, every characteristic, every colour, every frequency, every duration and every weight one could possibly imagine being testified to is misremembered on a daily basis by eyewitnesses. Or the metric is exaggerated/minimised for rhetorical effect.

That still doesn't stop police asking witnesses for the height and weight of a suspect, or stop people throwing out estimates about how long they were stuck in a traffic jam, or how far they threw the ball in the park.

For certainly, some figures would be nice. Problem with the Holohoax is that unlike those fake Vietnam vets, a lot of whom were never there, there are fake Holohoax victims who were ACTUALLY suffering at the camps. Probably that's why they usually get the benefit of the doubt.

LOL so this was the Stundie context. If you want numbers of fake Vietnam vets read the book Stolen Valor. There are evidently quite a few. You'd be hard pressed to name more than five fake concentration camp survivors, as in people claiming to have been in the camps who were never there.

Make it 40.

Indeed, we can make it whatever we like. That was my point. You're trying to turn a notoriously fuzzy metric, a self-reported weight remembered many decades later, into stone, when it could be as simple as someone saying 30 when they meant 40. There are dozens of explanations which have more credibility than your ludicrously literalist treatment of witness testimony.

He lived after that AND serious radiation damage up to at least 80. I know there is at least one person who lived quite long and survived BOTH atomic bombs on Japan, but the number of people subjected to either bomb were tens of thousands so there is a statistical chance (plus I don't think the guy ever weighed remotely near 40 kilos). There are no tens of thousands of victims of such sterilization experiments.

hundreds of prisoners passed through these experiments and quite a few survived the war.​

So now you're comparing exposure to x-rays to the radiation unleashed by a nuclear bomb? LOL, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised after your sterling performance on the black-holes-don't-exist thread.

 

[Nick Terry]

Just use Vergasung and freepatentsonline and you'll see plenty of German patents for gassifying coal.

indeed, but you'll also find that vergasen means to gas, and was the standard term used re: chemical weapons in WWI as well as for fumigation with HCN in the interwar years. There were even catchphrases built around Vergasung after 1918.

Meanwhile, a Vergaser is a carburetor.

You're still willfully ignoring context with all of this - there is no hint of any device that could gasify coal being installed in the basement of Krema II, whereas there are documents which not only identify gastight doors but which name the same room as a 'Gaskammer'.

No doubt you'll now insist, against all linguistic evidence and common sense, that things only ever have one definition and one dictionary entry. Give it up. This is hoary old rubbish that wasn't clever the first time it was tried 37 years ago.

Incidentally, besides human bodies, do you know which actual fuel the crematoria used?

that's the sort of detail you really ought to know.

Expecting 'not enough coke supply' in 3, 2, 1...

 

[Nick Terry]

Eugen Kogon (February 2, 1903 – December 24, 1987) was a historian and a survivor of the Holocaust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Kogon​

First line about Eugen Kogon. Maybe I should stop using wikipedia. It also claims a lot of Holohoax crap to be true. I knew he was a journalist first by the way.

Lest we forget, this was the set of goalposts you were originally trying to hit

I'll write you a check for $10,000 if you can name a single historian who ever wrote about six million Jews being killed by the Nazis and who relied on four million Jews being killed at Auschwitz to get that total figure.

I've highlighted the chief stumbling block you've tripped over.

Nice admission about the unreliability of at least some historical records from a year after the facts. So, did he change it in later editions?

Because Solzhenitsyn writing nearly 40 years after the Great Terror definitely got the numbers spot on.... oh wait...

 

[Natan]

i\You're still willfully ignoring context with all of this - there is no hint of any device that could gasify coal being installed in the basement of Krema II, whereas there are documents which not only identify gastight doors but which name the same room as a 'Gaskammer'.

Care to point out which document that would be? These ones are barely readable due to resolution and stuff:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/k2-thumbnails.html

Expecting 'not enough coke supply' in 3, 2, 1...

Nope. Should have expected: 'didn't that coal for the crematoria need some Vergasung and in which Keller did that happen'?

 

[Nick Terry]

Provide 50, please.

Heh, one of the few joys of moderated threads is finding that someone else replied with exactly the same point....

So, Simon666, your remark

Problem for you Nick is that it is more than just a few witness testimonies. There are literally HUNDREDS of "witness testimony" that are LITERALLY good for a good laugh.

has now been challenged by two separate people - give us 50 witness testimonies which would be regarded as genuinely laughable.

 

[Nick Terry]

Care to point out which document that would be? These ones are barely readable due to resolution and stuff:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/k2-thumbnails.html

Actually I don't care, because it's your job to demonstrate a basic familiarity with this subject if you want to be taken seriously. Pressac is online, and someone trying to discuss the crematoria and gas chambers of Birkenau ought to have read him, along with several other equally widely available works, such as Pelt's report for the Irving trial.

Heck, a self-styled revisionist should demonstrate some familiarity with the major arguments put forward by revisionists. Your 'gasification cellar' nonsense is straight out of Butz, whether you know it or not, but has been rejected by Faurisson (albeit after he tried 'gasification' on and was shot down), Crowell and Mattogno.

I'm seeing no evidence that you have read, much less understood, the basic literature on either side of the 'debate'. You're basically making it up as you go along. Stop wasting everyone's time.

Nope. Should have expected: 'didn't that coal for the crematoria need some Vergasung and in which Keller did that happen'?

Why are you persisting with nonsensical arguments that no revisionist has used since about 1980?

There isn't a single item in any of the files or blueprints for the crematoria basements which could possibly 'gasify' coal.

 

[Natan]

There isn't a single item in any of the files or blueprints for the crematoria basements which could possibly 'gasify' coal.

Funny. Blueprint for Mauthausen Krema of Topf and Sons design:

http://littlegreyrabbit.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/90e265455a4634264c88f3130f487c436f14171c1.jpg

Gassifier unit indicated, incidentally located in a Keller.

 

[Natan]

You missed something, Simon.

Emphasis mine.

Doc Terry:

theoretical maximum capacity (not least because of the implicit 24-hour functioning, which is known to be a swift route to a breakdown). ​

Doc Terry is starting to sound like a denier:

Running the furnaces continually

This makes cremation much more efficient, as the furnaces don't have to be pre-heated before every cremation. "Holocaust revisionists" answer by claiming that continuous operation harms the furnaces. However, the opposite is true; keeping the furnaces hot, and avoiding repeated changes of temperature, actually preserves the furnace. This fact is acknowledged in a letter from the furnace manufacturer firm Topf to the Mauthausen SS Construction Administration, July 7 1941:

"It is not harmful to operate the incinerators day and night, if required, since the fire clay lasts longer when an even temperature is maintained".

(Quoted in Danuta Czech's "Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945", p. 71-2)
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation/discussion.shtml​

 

[Robrob]

Provide 50, please.

Heh, one of the few joys of moderated threads is finding that someone else replied with exactly the same point....

So, Simon666, your remark

Problem for you Nick is that it is more than just a few witness testimonies. There are literally HUNDREDS of "witness testimony" that are LITERALLY good for a good laugh.

has now been challenged by two separate people - give us 50 witness testimonies which would be regarded as genuinely laughable.

Make it three. I'd like to see just 50 as well.

Why are you persisting with nonsensical arguments that no revisionist has used since about 1980?

I suspect it's a result of endless recycling and parroting of memes they find floating about on the internet.

 

[000063]

Doc Terry:

theoretical maximum capacity (not least because of the implicit 24-hour functioning, which is known to be a swift route to a breakdown). ​

Doc Terry is starting to sound like a denier:

Running the furnaces continually

This makes cremation much more efficient, as the furnaces don't have to be pre-heated before every cremation. "Holocaust revisionists" answer by claiming that continuous operation harms the furnaces. However, the opposite is true; keeping the furnaces hot, and avoiding repeated changes of temperature, actually preserves the furnace. This fact is acknowledged in a letter from the furnace manufacturer firm Topf to the Mauthausen SS Construction Administration, July 7 1941:

"It is not harmful to operate the incinerators day and night, if required, since the fire clay lasts longer when an even temperature is maintained".

(Quoted in Danuta Czech's "Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945", p. 71-2)
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation/discussion.shtml​

So, just to be clear; you have no factual objection to the point being made in the text you just quoted? That the cremation furnaces running constantly actually increased efficiency? Do you believe this to be true? Because if you do, this has some implications for certain claims you made earlier.

Also, do you agree with the other information on that page?

 

[Natan]

Make it three. I'd like to see just 50 as well.

http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-archive.blogspot.be/

Usually sourced and all that stuff.

 

[Nick Terry]

Doc Terry:

theoretical maximum capacity (not least because of the implicit 24-hour functioning, which is known to be a swift route to a breakdown). ​

Doc Terry is starting to sound like a denier:

Running the furnaces continually

This makes cremation much more efficient, as the furnaces don't have to be pre-heated before every cremation. "Holocaust revisionists" answer by claiming that continuous operation harms the furnaces. However, the opposite is true; keeping the furnaces hot, and avoiding repeated changes of temperature, actually preserves the furnace. This fact is acknowledged in a letter from the furnace manufacturer firm Topf to the Mauthausen SS Construction Administration, July 7 1941:

"It is not harmful to operate the incinerators day and night, if required, since the fire clay lasts longer when an even temperature is maintained".

(Quoted in Danuta Czech's "Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945", p. 71-2)
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation/discussion.shtml​

Each of the ovens required cleaning out to remove accumulated crud; you could certainly run the crematoria for longer than 24 hours, but this would sooner or later result in a breakdown. The trick was to clean the ovens out while not letting them cool too drastically, as recommended in Topf's operating instructions:

Every evening, the furnace fire bars must be cleaned of clinker and the cinders removed.

In addition, care must be taken that at the end of operations, as soon as the furnace. having burnt everything. is empty and no coals remain, that all the air valves, doors and dampers are closed, so that the furnace does not cool.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0136.shtml

The fire clay would indeed last longer if the ovens were operated as continually as possible; what damages the bricks in the oven is a heating/cooling cycle.

But that doesn't mean you could operate the ovens literally 24-7 for prolonged periods. The amount of maintenance downtime is variously given as between 1 and 4 hours, and would probably vary depending on how busy the crematoria were; in peak periods you could probably push the ovens for a few days with very little or even no downtime, but like any piece of equipment, sustained continuous operation was going to cause problems.

Pressac makes similar points.

 

[Nick Terry]

Funny. Blueprint for Mauthausen Krema of Topf and Sons design:

http://littlegreyrabbit.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/90e265455a4634264c88f3130f487c436f14171c1.jpg

Gassifier unit indicated, incidentally located in a Keller.

Funny indeed, since we were discussing Birkenau, not Mauthausen.

I repeat: There is literally nothing in any of the files or blueprints which could possibly be construed as a 'gasifier' in the basements of the Birkenau crematoria.

 

[Nick Terry]

http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-archive.blogspot.be/

Usually sourced and all that stuff.

And now you want us to look through and do your work for you? Uh-uh. List 50 'laughable' witnesses yourself.

 

[SanityGap]

Doc Terry:

theoretical maximum capacity (not least because of the implicit 24-hour functioning, which is known to be a swift route to a breakdown). ​

Doc Terry is starting to sound like a denier:

Running the furnaces continually

This makes cremation much more efficient, as the furnaces don't have to be pre-heated before every cremation. "Holocaust revisionists" answer by claiming that continuous operation harms the furnaces. However, the opposite is true; keeping the furnaces hot, and avoiding repeated changes of temperature, actually preserves the furnace. This fact is acknowledged in a letter from the furnace manufacturer firm Topf to the Mauthausen SS Construction Administration, July 7 1941:

"It is not harmful to operate the incinerators day and night, if required, since the fire clay lasts longer when an even temperature is maintained".

(Quoted in Danuta Czech's "Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945", p. 71-2)
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation/discussion.shtml​

Have I got this straight? To prove that the Holocaust did not happen you use a quote from a memo that is evidence it did happen

 

[Natan]

I repeat: There is literally nothing in any of the files or blueprints which could possibly be construed as a 'gasifier' in the basements of the Birkenau crematoria.

Your original statement was general enough. We were indeed discussing Auschwitz Birkenau however. Anyway, I did point out it was also a Topf and Sons design. Is a gassifying cellar in Birkenau STILL that far fetched?

 

[000063]

Curiously, he has chosen not to answer my question about precisely that. I wonder why.

So, to bottom line it; running the furnaces 24-7 will, for a time, increase efficiency, but will nonetheless eventually lead to a breakdown if they are not cleaned. Also, there is a difference between the manufacturer's recommendation to keep them at an even temperature and actually using them to cremate bodies.

Glad that's sorted.

 

[Natan]

And now you want us to look through and do your work for you? Uh-uh. List 50 'laughable' witnesses yourself.

Thought so. It's all there sourced so you don't need to do any work. If I remember correctly I still need to look for your 30 voluntary SS witnesses as to the gas chambers, i.e. do your work. When I'm finished reading this thread (at page 70 of 104), I'll start.

 

[Natan]

Have I got this straight? To prove that the Holocaust did not happen you use a quote from a memo that is evidence it did happen

To get it straight: this shows the Holocaust supporters don't have their versions always straight. Papers are produced showing 24 hour operation, then there are papers that they shouldn't, it is alleged it was pretty much standard operation to put more than one body per muffle, then there are documents that say only one body should be cremated at a time.

 

[TSR]

http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-archive.blogspot.be/

Usually sourced and all that stuff.

Well, sourced from the usual liars which is not the same thing at all. Seriously, quotes from "The Protocols"? David Irving?

Top story:

"The Diary of Anne Frank" is a Fraud

Demonstrably wrong.

Nor was the diary an eyewitness account of the camps -- which was your original homework assignment.

Denier "scholarship" in action.