Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

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ITT: unfounded speculations about the contents of Obama's application letter, book promotion tactics and general political behaviour unrelated to the thread topic. With a side of Hillary bashing. Really?
 
Unless you don't know that it's spurious information, in which case heed it and vote Republican.
 
I didn't either, but just to show that I am not a monomaniacal leftist, I will freely admit that what Harry Reid did was so stupid that it deserves mocking and parodies. It was a shameful thing to put forth in a congressional chamber.

In fact I will go even farther and say that it was so stupid, that it deserves mocking from now until election day.

I am loosing track of who is being serious in this thread and what they are talking about.

So to be clear, you think that Reid accusing Romney of not paying taxes was the thing that was so stupid that it deserves mocking and you weren't being sarcastic?

FWIW, as something of a political moderate (I think both parties are driven a great deal by self interest and cynicism) I didn't think it was all that bad (assuming that I was right about what you were talking about). I thought as political attacks go it was creative and it was a double threat . On one hand, it was a parody of Romney saying he doesn't have anything to hide while he hides stuff. And on the other hand it went after a legitimate issue, wealthy people can pay very low tax rates using various legal loopholes and other less legal techniques. My wife recently read a biography of Getty and she mentioned to me that in some years he paid no income taxes.

It would have absolutely been in bad form if Obama had made the attack. Reasonably enough the president should be a little above some of the dirtier aspects of politics and this kind of thing at least moves into the gray zone of what is acceptable, but when Reid did it my general reaction was, "that's a good political ploy". At the very least, Fox News had to struggle a bit to come up with what were kind of lame responses.

I thought Slate had an interesting article on the fact that Romney hadn't released earlier tax returns. Their idea, based on no corroboration whatsoever was that Romney had money in Swiss bank accounts before the US successfully pressured the Swiss bankers to share some information about their customers with the US government. Just before the change went into effect the US government gave people with money in Swiss banks a one time get out of jail free opportunity to come clean and pay their taxes before the US government got access to the Swiss banking records for Americans. The Slate author's idea was that Romney took advantage of the get out of jail free opportunity and he would rather not admit that openly. The Slate author admitted to not having any facts to support his idea but I still thought it was some creative theorizing and it might be an example of exactly the kind of thing that Reid was looking accomplish with his ploy. So in the cynical, self serving, corrupt game that is American politics, well done Reid.

ETA: I disagreed with you because of your characterization of Reid's attack as stupid, but I did agree that it deserved parodying. If the attack by Root had not gone into birther land I think his attack would have been a reasonable way to respond to Reid's ploy. As it was, when Root's attack went into birther land it was going to look, reasonably enough, like routine whacko anti-Obama stuff which has essentially no credibility outside the narrow world of anti-Obama whackos.
 
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It's all just more silly political gamesmanship (both the tax return and transcript crap). It seems many CTers, as well as the some of the more extreme people on each side of the "political spectrum", can't or won't see it for what it really is.
 
ETA: I disagreed with you because of your characterization of Reid's attack as stupid, but I did agree that it deserved parodying. If the attack by Root had not gone into birther land I think his attack would have been a reasonable way to respond to Reid's ploy. As it was, when Root's attack went into birther land it was going to look, reasonably enough, like routine whacko anti-Obama stuff which has essentially no credibility outside the narrow world of anti-Obama whackos.
Good post.
 
I am loosing track of who is being serious in this thread and what they are talking about.

So to be clear, you think that Reid accusing Romney of not paying taxes was the thing that was so stupid that it deserves mocking and you weren't being sarcastic?

FWIW, as something of a political moderate (I think both parties are driven a great deal by self interest and cynicism) I didn't think it was all that bad (assuming that I was right about what you were talking about). I thought as political attacks go it was creative and it was a double threat . On one hand, it was a parody of Romney saying he doesn't have anything to hide while he hides stuff. And on the other hand it went after a legitimate issue, wealthy people can pay very low tax rates using various legal loopholes and other less legal techniques. My wife recently read a biography of Getty and she mentioned to me that in some years he paid no income taxes.

It would have absolutely been in bad form if Obama had made the attack. Reasonably enough the president should be a little above some of the dirtier aspects of politics and this kind of thing at least moves into the gray zone of what is acceptable, but when Reid did it my general reaction was, "that's a good political ploy". At the very least, Fox News had to struggle a bit to come up with what were kind of lame responses.

I thought Slate had an interesting article on the fact that Romney hadn't released earlier tax returns. Their idea, based on no corroboration whatsoever was that Romney had money in Swiss bank accounts before the US successfully pressured the Swiss bankers to share some information about their customers with the US government. Just before the change went into effect the US government gave people with money in Swiss banks a one time get out of jail free opportunity to come clean and pay their taxes before the US government got access to the Swiss banking records for Americans. The Slate author's idea was that Romney took advantage of the get out of jail free opportunity and he would rather not admit that openly. The Slate author admitted to not having any facts to support his idea but I still thought it was some creative theorizing and it might be an example of exactly the kind of thing that Reid was looking accomplish with his ploy. So in the cynical, self serving, corrupt game that is American politics, well done Reid.

ETA: I disagreed with you because of your characterization of Reid's attack as stupid, but I did agree that it deserved parodying. If the attack by Root had not gone into birther land I think his attack would have been a reasonable way to respond to Reid's ploy. As it was, when Root's attack went into birther land it was going to look, reasonably enough, like routine whacko anti-Obama stuff which has essentially no credibility outside the narrow world of anti-Obama whackos.

No. I have no problem with Reid talking about a presidential candidate in or out of congressional chambers. The problem I have is that someone expected to be taken serious after saying "The word is..." If one has a source, then give a citation. If one does not have a source, then one should preface one's assertions by admitting they are pure speculation.

In a formal debate where the stakes are as high as they are in this one, anyone saying "The word is..." deserves to be as mercilessly mocked as someone who says "Not intended to be a factual statement" was mocked.
 
No. I have no problem with Reid talking about a presidential candidate in or out of congressional chambers. The problem I have is that someone expected to be taken serious after saying "The word is..." If one has a source, then give a citation. If one does not have a source, then one should preface one's assertions by admitting they are pure speculation.

In a formal debate where the stakes are as high as they are in this one, anyone saying "The word is..." deserves to be as mercilessly mocked as someone who says "Not intended to be a factual statement" was mocked.

Reasonably enough, it sounds like you think politicians should be fair and intellectually honest with regards to their rhetoric. I would like to live in the world you envision, but in this world settling for politicians that aren't over the top corrupt is about the most one can hope for and we don't always get that. Reid engaged in a little tacky gamesmanship. It probably helped Obama's reelection chances more than it hurt them. So it might have been unfair and tacky but it worked.

How about the whole Indian ancestry ploy used against Elizabeth Warren? I suppose you thought that was stupid and unfair also. Of course it was unfair and even stupid in terms of the validity of the issue but it probably worked a little and will probably result in a percentage or so gain for Warren's opponent.

It seems like, we are stuck, as humans, with corrupt, intellectually dishonest politicians because those are the kind we vote for. Reid's little ploy seems pretty down on the list of transgressions (if it was one) by politicians. I think I'm too burned out over questionable wars run for the profit of political cronies to get too worked up over Reid acting like a politician.
 
Ladewig said:
Now that's some damned fine posting.

You start with the assertions about Obama's college years.
You get called out and respond with "But it was parody!"
Then on the very next page, you are back to treating this stuff seriously.

Which is it, Robert Prey, parody or serious allegation?
Both. The Parody consists of the words of Harry Reid ("The word is out...") and his unfounded allegation as to Romney's 10 year non-payment of taxes. Anyone can make unfounded allegations, including Wayne Allyn Root.

OK I'm glad no one here takes this krap seriously. How exactly would someone born in the US to an American mother and who studied at a schools in the US 5 - 12 grade qualify as a foreign exchange student?

I agree Reid's comments were dumb, but if Romney really wanted to humiliate him he could easily prove him wrong.

http://www.salon.com/2012/08/11/what_is_romney_hiding_salpart/singleton/
 
Originally Posted by Robert Prey
Originally Posted by Ladewig
Now that's some damned fine posting.

You start with the assertions about Obama's college years.
You get called out and respond with "But it was parody!"
Then on the very next page, you are back to treating this stuff seriously.

Which is it, Robert Prey, parody or serious allegation?
Both. The Parody consists of the words of Harry Reid ("The word is out...") and his unfounded allegation as to Romney's 10 year non-payment of taxes. Anyone can make unfounded allegations, including Wayne Allyn Root.

Yes, but some assertions are so stupid it's clear they are playing only to the lowest elements of society - or not intended to be serious in the first place. It is possible that Romney hasn't paid tax for years. It is not possible that Obama did not attend Columbia and this has remained a secret.
 
April Fool's or not, we still don't have O's transcripts nor any proof that he did not receive a foreign exchange student scholarship.

Onus probandi: You make the claim, you back it up. And since the claim is that Obama attended on a foreign exchange student scholarship it's up to the claimant to show that he did.
 
Robert Prey embarasses himself backing a story that started from an April Fool's joke.

Seriously--learn that a statement is not true just because it's against Obama and you don't like Obama.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/occidental.asp

Sorry. It's no April's Fool's joke that O's college transcripts are still sealed and we do not know if he did or did not receive a foreign exchange student scholarship. That April Fool's joke seems to simply be a cover for the real doubts about just who and what O is all about.
 
April Fool's or not, we still don't have O's transcripts nor any proof that he did not receive a foreign exchange student scholarship.

This is simply brilliant. Who could come up with such an important observation except a bleedin' genius. We have no proof that Ron Paul "did not receive a foreign exchange student scholarship" either. What kind of statement is that? I know! It's the words of a bleedin' genius. Thanks dude. Keep it up.
 
Oh, that is just sad, Robert.

The foreign exchange scholarship was a hoax, an April Fool's Day joke. You've been had. You've been fooled. People have straight up lied to you and you believed it hook, line, and sinker.
.

And the O's transcripts are not sealed? And there is proof somewhere that he did not receive a For. Ex. Student scholarship? Don't be fooled by an April's Fool's Red Herring.
 
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