JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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Name just one Med. Witness quote that doesn't mean what it means?????

How about the guy who initially said there were "no brains to remove" from Kennedy's head, but then later had to correct himself and say that there was indeed brain tissue there. Even the witness agrees that he meant to say something other that what he initially said.
 
Robert, I asked you this several months and about 90 pages ago, but I'll ask it again; do you honestly believe any sane person following this thread believes any of your nonsense?

And I challenged him twice to name a single person who cites Robert Prey's arguments specifically as the reason why they believed in a conspiracy. So far, nothing. Robert seems incapable of distinguishing between the belief itself and the reasons some person gives for believing.
 
Interestingly, the Poll actually concluded that "among those with a post-graduate education, 71% believe others were involved in the assassination". So much for your Gallup Poll "evidence".

And here's the context of the quote, which Robert dishonestly omits:
"Among those with a post-graduate education, 71% believe others were involved in the assassination, compared with 78% among those with some college education and 84% among those with a H.S. education or less." http://www.gallup.com/poll/1813/most-americans-believe-oswald-conspired-others-kill-jfk.aspx

The Gallup findings clearly show a correlation between reported educational attainment and reported belief in an assassination conspiracy. I'm not sure what you hoped to gain by posting the edited quote. I have stipulated from my very first post on the subject that some significant number of people consistently poll in favor of belief that Oswald did not act alone. I don't understand why you're attempting to suggest otherwise, except possibly to engage in your signature straw-manning.

The question has always been whether your particular arguments are convincing*. It has never been whether some significant number of people express a superficially similar belief for reasons that have nothing to do with how well you present your case at JREF.

Educational attainment can be considered a proxy for many traits that affect whether someone is apt to believe in a conspiracy. Absent any specific data, we can only speculate. All we can say for sure is that overall the notion of a JFK conspiracy is predicated in general upon elements that become less convincing the more education one has received.

You have a chronic inability to reason properly between cause and effect. Here you can't see that there is a difference between what someone who's never heard of you believes, and what you specifically say in an obscure venue in alleged support of some similar belief. You don't get to pretend that your arguments here transparently represent the state of all JFK conspiracy thinking and are thus divorced from your personal failures. You made a similar error citing as "peer reviewers" two individuals who had never seen Jack White's work, but had simply reached congruent conclusions. You don't seem to understand that having arrived at a superficially similar conclusion is not the same as having validated some particular route toward it -- unless you can also show that the route in question is the one that was followed. You always skip that step.

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* And there seems to be considerable disagreement between you and the rest of the forum on what constitutes "your particular arguments." You seem to think "your arguments" are putatively objective references to eyewitness statements. The rest of the forum rightly think "your arguments" are your interpretation of those statements and the suggestion that they support your belief, often in the face of clear additional evidence to the contrary.
 
How is written hearsay from an absent minded doctor any different from written hearsay from an absent mided author?

As far as I know, nothing prevents Robert Prey from attempting to contact Josiah Thompson to verify the correspondence. If it is his affirmative claim that Thompson has been unfairly or fraudulently represented here, then it is his burden of proof. Any party whose response to witness testimony is that the witness is unreliable or dishonest bears the burden to impeach the witness if he can. Simply suggesting ways in which the witness may be impeached doesn't satisfy.

Oh, and if we are now only concerned with court of public opinion will you please retract all your posts discussing what you thought would or would not happen in an actual court?

I'm puzzled too. It has always been my belief that Robert insisted upon a standard of proof that is congruent with legal admissibility in court. I don't know where he said that, but a number of people have referred to it. The "court of public opinion" doesn't qualify, especially where it's specifically postured in contrast to a formal court, and specifically where the standard of proof is concerned. It appears Robert requires his opponents to satisfy the standard of legal admissibility, but can substitute a more lenient standard for his own evidence if he needs to.

I find it ironic that Robert is begging to be spoon-fed the criteria for expertise in connection with Brian Mee, his (non-)expert defender of Jack White, when I presented the legal standard for being considered an expert witness in court way back last autumn. Robert dismissed it as "just Jay's opinion," and never substituted his own, presumably better criteria. Poor Robert "Someone Please Tell Me What An Expert Is" Prey can't keep his standard of proof consistent. He must adjust it to admit his, and only his evidence.
 
...All we can say for sure is that overall the notion of a JFK conspiracy is predicated in general upon elements that become less convincing the more education one has received.
I was about to post something similar.

Our little friend attempts to bolster his position by touting some seemingly relevent statistic regarding the percentage of the populace who believe in a JFK assassination conspiracy. I think it's safe to say a great majority of these people have never been educated on the topic beyond the most basic elements; that would require no little time and effort*. Were they to be, I'd wager (but with admittedly no way to confirm the guess) the percentage maintaining the notion of a conspiracy would drop off dramatically.

The relevency to our Mr. Prey is that he has being generously given a fairly good schooling in this thread but doesn't even make Effort One to learn.

*I'm reminded of Vince Bugliosi telling the story of his giving a speech before some sizable gathering of people (I want to say lawyers) and asking how many disbelieved the Warren Report. After dozens of hands went up he then asked, "And how many of you have actually read it?" The show of hands fell to a, well, handful.
 
How about the guy who initially said there were "no brains to remove" from Kennedy's head, but then later had to correct himself and say that there was indeed brain tissue there. Even the witness agrees that he meant to say something other that what he initially said.


That's the best you can do? The valid conclusion is that like all other Medical witnesses, Paul O'Connor observed a loss of brains, whatever the percentage which one can deduce from other witnesses, was extensive, yet ongoing even after death.
 
That's the best you can do?
No the best we can do is point out none of your arguments have convinced. This is a convenient example.

The valid conclusion is that like all other Medical witnesses, Paul O'Connor observed a loss of brains,
No. Unlike other witnesses he observed the brain had been completely removed. We know this because you posted his quote yourself.

Tell me Robert can you tell the difference between brains and no brains?


whatever the percentage which one can deduce from other witnesses, was extensive, yet ongoing even after death.

The amount of brain matter lost was ongoing after death?

To a total of zero?

Stundie noted.

Which other witnesses observed that percentage of lost brains to be 100%?

When a witness says one thing (there was no brains) then says something different (there was some brains) that means they have changed their story. It makes their testemony unreliable as we now have to ask which of their corrections is true, and how can we can be sure they wont change their mind in the future.

But this witness further conflicts with others, by stating there was only a handful, ie enough matter to fill one brain, and it was maciated. Yet other witnesses describe recognisible brain tissues, not a maciated mess, or a total loss, and fought to save the patients life.

Long story short: The witness conflicts with others, and with himself. He is the perfect example of why witness memory such a poor form of evidence.
 
NO. That's why I list many, many witnesses, not just one or two. EAch corroborating the other. Witnesses can indeed by mistaken.But when you have 40 plus, the chances of that are virtually nil and you know it; I know it; we all know it.

Go ahead and list the 40 plus in one post, with citations then. No, your previous copied and pasted list from another web page doesn't count.

So far you have a total of zero out of your twelve attempts.
 
Kindergarten minutia. A loss of brains is a loss of brains -- whole or in part.

Wow, it's a good job the witness whose statement you posted was beased on his job to examine and remove the brains was not bothered by the meagre detail of it was there, or if there was just some missing. So you quoted him as a witness based on his testemony there was no brain, but its ok, as he only has to get the gist right?

So you don't think the presence or absence of a brain in the skull he was examining is the kind of "kindergarten minutia" a technical witness should have been paying attention to, as long as he was able to deduce there was some missing?


Wow. Just WOW.
 
Unlike you and your prejudicial viewpoint, I do not claim that one party must be lying and the other not. As I have pointed out,both could be telling the truth. But such a possibility is outside your myopic view.

Please highlight the post where I stated that one has to lie and the other to tell the truth? Perhaps you didn't understand the question: I asked what factors makes one witness inately more reliable or honest than another. I asked several times in fact. Because, despite your claim both could be telling the truth you called Thompson "absent minded" on the basis he disagreed with McClellend. How do you know it is not the doctor who might be absent minded and unreliable?

The following post makes it clear, that regardless of Thompsons claims you believe the Doctor to be correct with out question:
In Dr. M's own words, the drawing is an "exact copy in terms of location and dimensions" of the drawing he, Dr.M made for J.Thompson in 1966. What J.T. did after that is a moot point, as is whether the the proper word is "dictated" or copied and re-copied (trying to give J.T. some benefit of the doubt). Mindless minutia. K was shot in the head by a shot from the front of which Dr. M's WC statements his drawing are proof -- one of 40 plus. End of story.

This ignores the possibility that, if neither is lying or mistaken, the drawing could have been comissioned with out any input or influence from McClellend at all.

Of course, McClellends claim is not supported by documentary evidence, and we have no reason to assume it is accurate.
 
Robert, you don't seem to get it. You come out with your cherry-picked statements that are then challenged with counter statements and clarifications by the people you hoped to further your beliefs. You ignore the evidence and move on to the next, thinking that you've proved your point. You state people who claim victory are infantile and then do it yourself a few posts later.

Anyone who states a contrary position to you, and backs it up with proof is treated to some of Oscar Meyer's finest from you.

You dodge questions, and hope that they will go away.
 
You dodge questions, and hope that they will go away.

But they don't do they?

When will Robert tell us which regions of the skull were compromised in the WC drawings? Or what makes McClellend more reliable and less absent minded than any other witness? Or what time it is in the post photo? Or how he was able to validate that Kemp ever said "blow out"? Or why he suggested Kemps signing the WC validated it when first asked, only to claim it was sophomoric later? Or what the definition of "blow out" is? Or where the photo artefacts showing the Z film had been altered or painted are? Or how polaroids can be altered? Or which part of Mees CV makes him an expert on forensic photo analysis?

They just don't go away, they go unanswered.
 
Well why don't you put your education to work and answer the question:
How is written hearsay from a doctor claiming one thing any different from written hearsay by an "absent minded" writer?All you have to do is explain what makes one claim (unsupported by contemporary documentation) different from another (supported by documentary evidence in the form of the credits of the book).

Go ahead Robert, let's look at why you feel one witness in inherently more reliable and honest than another and assume that witness to be correct, based on no supporting evidence that he drew an image, gave the image to an artist, or that artist used the image to produce the published drawing.

When somebody states an event they had no part in as evidence, for example if an artist used anothers drawing as a source, based on an assumption, that is hearsay.

By the way, I did ask what your level of education was. Odd you haven't answered while being vocal on others education.

Yep ladies and gentlemen, my "prejudicial viewpoint" in all its glory:

If anybody can show me the exact line where I claimed one or other has to be telling a lie, please let me know. As the closest I can see is the highlighted passage asking what makes one or other witness more or less reliable than the other.

I do however discuss Roberts apparent prejudice that McCellend could not possibly have embelished or misrepresented or mistated or misremembered.
 
Here are a couple quotes from Dr. McCelland to consider in one's understanding of his description of the wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the condition of the back of the head?

Dr. McClelland. Well, partially; not, of course, as I say, we did not lift his head up since it was so greatly damaged.

“The way the wound was describe by Mr. Jenkins squares very well with what I saw. I think that the reason my wound [in an earlier drawing] seems lower was because of the hair hanging down over part of it.”
 
Here are a couple quotes from Dr. McCelland to consider in one's understanding of his description of the wound.

Quote:
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the condition of the back of the head?

Dr. McClelland. Well, partially; not, of course, as I say, we did not lift his head up since it was so greatly damaged.
Quote:
“The way the wound was describe by Mr. Jenkins squares very well with what I saw. I think that the reason my wound [in an earlier drawing] seems lower was because of the hair hanging down over part of it.”

And here are a couple of quotes for Dr.McCellenad to consider as well:

"...I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. It had been shattered...so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out...." (WC--V6:33)

Taking passages out of context in order to confuse is not a very good idea.
 
I have 40 plus on the scene medical witnesses as proof. You, on the other hand, have none.


All of this has been posted before, but Robert chooses to ignore it. Here are some quotes from those actually on the scene of the assassination.

BILL NEWMAN
“And then as the car got directly in front of us, well, a gun shot apparently from behind us hit the President in the side, the side of the temple.”

GAYLE NEWMAN
"I saw blood all over the side of his head"

"he was shot in the head right at his ear or right above his ear.
 
In the Court of Public Opinion, a signed statement will do just fine. Certainly superior to hearsay from an absent minded author.

For people who need help to figure out if a fart goes with a blue hat, a signed statement might be sufficient, but individuals with some knowledge of the subject matter will in all likelyhood expect actual evidence.

A "signed statement" means -0-
 
And here are a couple of quotes for Dr.McCellenad to consider as well:

"...I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. It had been shattered...so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out...." (WC--V6:33)

Taking passages out of context in order to confuse is not a very good idea.

No so lets take the passages in context:
Quote:
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the condition of the back of the head?

Dr. McClelland. Well, partially; not, of course, as I say, we did not lift his head up since it was so greatly damaged.
Quote:
“The way the wound was describe by Mr. Jenkins squares very well with what I saw. I think that the reason my wound [in an earlier drawing] seems lower was because of the hair hanging down over part of it.”


So the back of the head was not lifted or examined.
The wounds described are not in conflict with the WC findings as Robert believes.
The wound was higher than McC had initially placed. Perhaps as high as the WC illustrations would put it?

Isn't context a wonderful thing.
 
Robert, you don't seem to get it. You come out with your cherry-picked statements that are then challenged with counter statements and clarifications by the people you hoped to further your beliefs. You ignore the evidence and move on to the next, thinking that you've proved your point. You state people who claim victory are infantile and then do it yourself a few posts later.

Anyone who states a contrary position to you, and backs it up with proof is treated to some of Oscar Meyer's finest from you.

You dodge questions, and hope that they will go away.

As regards to medical witnesses, no one has been able to refute any of the witnesses I have cited.What you would need to do is show a mis-quote.Otherwise your argument is worthless.
 
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