Rrose Selavy
Stranded in Sub-Atomica
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Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father
- Thread starter Orphia Nay
- Start date
Justinian,
Perhaps we can get the discussion back on track and away from personal stuff. Hopefully you will find my question a little less agressive than the posts you are complaining about:
"Do you believe Christianity, Judaism and Islam can all be correct about the divinity, or lack there of, of Jesus, yes or no?"
I guess I can add a second question now. Why do you think that Scientologists don't prove Scientology to the unbelievers? Hubbard claimed that auditing caused you to lose mass. That seems pretty easy to demonstrate. The healing claims seem pretty easy to demonstrate. Other claims are harder to prove, but surely still worth the effort. Don't Church of Scientology or Freezone Scientologists want general acceptance of Scientology?
Perhaps we can get the discussion back on track and away from personal stuff. Hopefully you will find my question a little less agressive than the posts you are complaining about:
"Do you believe Christianity, Judaism and Islam can all be correct about the divinity, or lack there of, of Jesus, yes or no?"
I guess I can add a second question now. Why do you think that Scientologists don't prove Scientology to the unbelievers? Hubbard claimed that auditing caused you to lose mass. That seems pretty easy to demonstrate. The healing claims seem pretty easy to demonstrate. Other claims are harder to prove, but surely still worth the effort. Don't Church of Scientology or Freezone Scientologists want general acceptance of Scientology?
Why post this? You know it isn't evidence that the device works. You need somewhere to show that that is what you are detecting and that you are able to extract the information that you claim to be able to extract from it. This is like a homeopath posting a link to an article on Quantum Mechanics. Sure, if it works, it might work like that. You've missed the steps though where you show that it works and it works like that. On the plus side, you have a theory now that could be tested if anybody in Scientology were interested in demonstrating that the emeter worked and thereby giving some academic respectability to Scientology.
The Dark Lord
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Report me.
Credentials nessesary to know that a "religion" founded by a meglomaniac pathological liar who said that the way to make money is to start a religion and includes such nonsense as Xenu, body thetans, engrams, miraclulous cures for disease, and superpowers is a bunch of nonsense: the ability to think rationally.
And of course, the fact remains that your profit, LRon, had no credentials whatsoever. And the fact of the matter is that people with credentials have examined your stupid little emeters and found that they don't do ****. That's why that have to put a disclaimer on it.
You said you don't have to fear $cientology unless you fear the truth. But the CO$ is an evil organization that has done all sorts of horrible things, and so one could easily fear them without fearing the truth.
I said if we were stupid enough to give them money. If that were the case, we wouldn't know it was a scam and wouldn't be saying the things we are. So they would gladly take as much money as possible from us.
Projection.
LOL.
And yet here you are arguing with us.
Fact of the matter is that you, or any other believer could set up an empirical test to prove that the emeter works and shut us up forever. If it really worked, that is. Don't you want to prove to the world that your "religion" isn't a sham? Wouldn't that go a long way towards the supposed goal of clearing the planet? Plus, you could probably win Randi's million dollar challenge? Let me guess, you don't want a million dollars for doing very little work while at the same time proving your "religion" isn't a sham.
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calebprime
Penultimate Amazing
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Profit is probably more accurate than prophet.
Justinian2
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The Emeter does work. Just as a baby knows that gravity works when he drops things on the floor from his highchair and squeals with delight as he watches gravity pull the object towards the floor. The baby does not need to read a scientific explaination of gravity or know that v=at. The baby just knows that gravity pulls things towards the floor.
EPPs are a plausible explaination for the type of meter movement scientologists look for in their Emeter. Having seen the EPPs displayed on a digital storage oscilloscope and having seen the meter movement of an Emeter during a read, I conclude that they are related.
Sweat and similar things produce slow meter movents and are ignored.
All Scientologists know with 100 percent certainty that the Emeter does work. A demonstration is worth 1000 words, so get one if you must know.
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Flo
Illuminator
Fixed it for you.
Numerous demonstrations of its uselesness have already been done.
The Dark Lord
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I know, that was intentional.
Justinian2
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Done
[...]
Fact of the matter is that you, or any other believer could set up an empirical test to prove that the emeter works and shut us up forever. If it really worked, that is. Don't you want to prove to the world that your "religion" isn't a sham? Wouldn't that go a long way towards the supposed goal of clearing the planet? Plus, you could probably win Randi's million dollar challenge? Let me guess, you don't want a million dollars for doing very little work while at the same time proving your "religion" isn't a sham.
It has been done for 50 years. Go get a demonstration and an intorductory session. You won't make it past the list of questions and into the session, which should prove to you that the Emeter works.
That's fine. But again, an appropriate demonstration for one audience isn't necessarily an appropriate one for another. What is the point of posting a link to something that you think might descibe some aspect of how something might work, if it works, when you know perfectly well that your audience doesn't believe it works. As you say though, it would be very easy for you, or any other scientologist to demonstrate to everybody's satisfaction that the emeter works. It must have been tempting to do that during the whole IRS thing, so I guess you all have good reasons for not doing the things that would give your religion respectability and wider appeal. It surprises me though that both the official Church and the Freezone should be in agreement on this.
devnull
Philosopher
Oooh, I smell a dare!
I double dares ya!
ps. You logic is still faulty Justinian, but you dont seem to care, so I wont bore you with the details.
dafydd
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What are your credentials? (With an ''n'', by the way)
dafydd
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Of course it works. It parts mugs from their money, which is what it was designed to do.
Justinian2
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Anybody that wants to know if an Emeter works could watch the Emeter, auditor and PC with a remote camera. That a series of questions only conincidentlly correlates with the read and subsequent reads would be a coincidence of one in a trillion trillion.
If we can get pictures back from Mars and sequence DNA, then it is easy to determine that an Emeter works.
The chance that an Emeter doesn't work is one in a trillion trillion as a crude engineering estimate.
Countless times, on both sides of the Emeter I, or my auditor, said "What was that" when he saw an emeter read only to have a much larger read follow acompanied by tears and emotion.
For anyone to believe that an Emeter doesn't work is in denial. Sorry to give you the bad news, but with absolute certainty I say that an Emeter works.
The Emeter is the beginning. Without agreement on the Emeter, we cannot discuss Scientology auditing. It is useless.
Cleon
King of the Pod People
Fundamentalist Christians "know with 100 percent certainty" that the Bible is completely factual.
Oddly, that line of "reasoning" isn't particularly convincing.
Krikkiter
Graduate Poster
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You are presenting anecdotal evidence combined with a statistical analysis you simply pulled out of thin air as fact.
... or doesn't, as the case may be.
This is pure bluster. Obviously there is no way you could ever get these stats from any actual scientific data.
Anecdotes aren't evidence.
I say with absolute certainty that the E-meter does not do what it is supposed to do.
We can discuss it all we want. It's just that you've excluded yourself from the conversation.
Really Justinian, I'm all ears re: your insistence that the E-meter works but if this is the best you've got then I seriously recommend you structure your arguments a little better. I wrote a little post a while back showing my understanding of why the E-meter doesn't work. I'm pretty sure there were a few things I missed or wasn't completely accurate with but at least I gave it a go. You're not even trying.
Justinian,
Yes but that is what the rest of the world might do if it was interested in Scientology and emeters, which it clearly isn't. You say you believe they work. Lots of scientologists claim to. Some of them have access to substantial resources. The Church of Scientology, Tom Cruise, and doubtless there are people in the Freezone with money. Aren't Scientologists interested in having the rest of the world accept Scientology? Do you actually want the overwhelming majority of people to either not have heard of Scientology, or think it's a mad sci-fi cult?
I don't want to be tasteless, so I'm not going to Google some case of some doe eyed 5 year old with Leukaemia. Clearly I could. Hubbard claimed to have a device that could cure Leukaemia. Why don't the church of Scientology spend 1% of 1% of their wealth on funding a decent study of the emeter and amazing everybody by how peoples weight drops off when they are audited. They could even challenge Randi if they felt like it, but doubtless they could get the publicity without him. Perhaps you don't need to have it proved in this way, but it's abundantly clear that the rest of the world hasn't been that bothered by the level of proof offered so far.
Please don't answer as if we should come and find out for ourselves. Some posters have, and said it doesn't work. Most of us don't believe and aren't going to bother. Scientologists could, if they chose, cut through our disbelief, prove us all wrong, and cure the leukaemia of all this cute 5 year old, but they don't. Why don't they Justinian?
Also, please answer my question:
"Do you believe Christianity, Judaism and Islam can all be correct about the divinity, or lack there of, of Jesus, yes or no?"
Thank you
Yes but that is what the rest of the world might do if it was interested in Scientology and emeters, which it clearly isn't. You say you believe they work. Lots of scientologists claim to. Some of them have access to substantial resources. The Church of Scientology, Tom Cruise, and doubtless there are people in the Freezone with money. Aren't Scientologists interested in having the rest of the world accept Scientology? Do you actually want the overwhelming majority of people to either not have heard of Scientology, or think it's a mad sci-fi cult?
I don't want to be tasteless, so I'm not going to Google some case of some doe eyed 5 year old with Leukaemia. Clearly I could. Hubbard claimed to have a device that could cure Leukaemia. Why don't the church of Scientology spend 1% of 1% of their wealth on funding a decent study of the emeter and amazing everybody by how peoples weight drops off when they are audited. They could even challenge Randi if they felt like it, but doubtless they could get the publicity without him. Perhaps you don't need to have it proved in this way, but it's abundantly clear that the rest of the world hasn't been that bothered by the level of proof offered so far.
Please don't answer as if we should come and find out for ourselves. Some posters have, and said it doesn't work. Most of us don't believe and aren't going to bother. Scientologists could, if they chose, cut through our disbelief, prove us all wrong, and cure the leukaemia of all this cute 5 year old, but they don't. Why don't they Justinian?
Also, please answer my question:
"Do you believe Christianity, Judaism and Islam can all be correct about the divinity, or lack there of, of Jesus, yes or no?"
Thank you
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It's like if I said "I have secret knowledge that will end the financial crisis tomorrow, but I will only reveal it if the Pope tells the Aristocrats joke on Al Jazeera". It's never going to happen, so I might as well say I don't want the world to believe me.
For 60 years the population of the world has overwhelmingly not cared about Scientology and emeters. Yet the condition that they be shown that Scientology works is that they should care about Scientology and emeters. Why not just say that you don't want most people to believe in Scientology and get what ever benifits arrise from it?
For 60 years the population of the world has overwhelmingly not cared about Scientology and emeters. Yet the condition that they be shown that Scientology works is that they should care about Scientology and emeters. Why not just say that you don't want most people to believe in Scientology and get what ever benifits arrise from it?
dafydd
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Amen.
