Osama Bin Laden died of lung disease?

[jaydeehess]

But seriously. I was just reading up on the Iraq war watching some video's and what not. Then I happen to stumble on some old news articles saying Bin Laden died of lung problems in 2000 - 2001 sometime.

After that four big questions popped into my mind.

#1 No proof I am aware of was ever released, only claims.

Simon 66
The standard here on JREF is that if you believe something exists (God, paranormal events or an event such as Bin Laden's death), verifiable evidence of this should be provided. What verifiable evidence is there of Bin Laden's death in Abbottabad? Let me see: NOTHING. You should be the one trying better arguments.

Yes, you do address a point made by Kevin, by reiterating it.

However, lack of proof of one claim by no means provides proof of a competeing claim. Since the competeing claim also has less evidence than the original this point is at the very best, moot.

#2 Bin Laden was well known for taunting videos and messages for lack of better words and they all virtually ceased in the last decade.

Of course this also coincides with the quite obvious fact that these men were being actively hunted and constantly on the run. Sending out communiques is one very big way that the hunters can use to find their prey. Thus it was in their personal best interests to remain fairly quiet.

#3 It would be in the best interest of Al-Qaida to never mention their leader death as it would boost Western Morale.

Simon, you seemed to try and make this point as well but it is equally true that a martyred OBL would bolster the ranks of AQ
and
of course the opposite is also true. IF OBL was not dead then trotting him out after the USA says he IS dead would very much deaden US morale. In fact a disinformation program with an AQ faked OBL in video would have done that. Odd, nothing came out of that.

#4 It is in the best interest of Obama to make claim to this victory even if it is false.

D[/QUOTE]

It's more than you provided.

And yes, you're the one making the conspiratorial claim that's contradicted by evidence you're handwaving away, and trying to support that claim with little more than appeals to incredulity as well as bare assertion. That makes you the crackpot.

Its a case of my supposed anomolies, interpreted the way I choose them to be is better than the photos and claims you make.
At worst its a wash. But their is NO evidence to support the claim that OBL died earlier and there is NO evidence that he was not killed by Obama's order. Only rather weak evidence that the man in some odler videos is not the same man as in others.

Which doesn't stop them from blowing the whistle when the information they're provided is contradicted later. Research Iraq-WMD claims for a case study.

The claims you cite has resulted in practically zero whistles being sounded by that press.

The very same press that constantly question Iraqi WMD and eventually showed it to be false and that only a biased reading of weak evidence by the GWB admin could possibly account for making the claim, is the very same press that has not questioned the authenticity of the videos or the claim that Seal Team killed OBL last year with anything approaching the same intensity.
Odd how that happens.

 

[Natan]

If Bin laden died around 2001 / 2002 then where is the evidence for that? Where are the photos?

Does there need to be? If he got a daisy cutter on his head at Tora Bora, you might want to use a microscope instead of a photo-camera.

 

[Natan]

Prisoners in Pakistan generally aren't allowed to give media interviews, you know.

Well gee whiz. Then don't bring that guy forward as some sort of evidence as he ain't talking. Neither are any of those supposed "Bin Laden" widows even if they've been allegedly released.

Why not ask his wives who were there at the time.......

See above.

 

[Bell]

Does there need to be?

Does this mean you don't have any evidence of Bin Laden dying in 2001 / 2002?

 

[A'isha]

Well gee whiz. Then don't bring that guy forward as some sort of evidence as he ain't talking.

Oh, he talked, all right. As did the Pakistanis, when they investigated him for his role in Bin Laden's death. He just hasn't had a chance to give "interviews", what with him being on trial and sentenced to prison for treason and all.

You were just completely wrong about no one having seen him.

 

[Natan]

DNA evidence (the exact same sort used on multiple occasions in the WoT, including on Saddam), testimony from his wife, his family, from Al Qaeda themselves. Or, if you prefer, a loosely-organized group of terrorists operating under OBL's leadership.

NONE of this supposed "evidence" is verifiable. The DNA was not independently verified, let alone it is not known which lab originally verified it. "His wife" has only been shown on Pakistani TV briefly clad in burqa, no way to verify either. Omar Bin Laden has his doubts when it comes to family so you're wrong there and as to Al Qaeda, you are referring to an anonymous post from "Al Qaeda general command" on a "jihadi forum" that was announced by SITE Intel before the jihadis knew about it. Both SITE Intel and IntelCenter are highly suspect in beating "Al Qaeda" to the news or being an "Al Qaeda" favorite medium even though co founder Rita Katz is a jew. So great source, this "Al Qaeda" confirmation.

July 4, 2007: A video by Ayman al-Zawahiri was obtained by SITE "ahead of its release on the internet by militant web sites".[4] It was "first reported by IntelCenter and SITE, two U.S.-based groups that monitor militant messages".[5] The video had been "provided by al-Qaeda's as-Sahab Media to IntelCenter".[6]
Sept. 7, 2007: SITE obtained a 30-minute video of Osama bin Laden and provided it to Associated Press. bin Laden's image is "frozen" for all but 3½ minutes of the tape.[7] SITE "beat al-Qaeda by nearly a full day with the release of the ... video".[8] The US government later pronounced the video authentic. See also: 2007 Osama bin Laden video.
May 3, 2011: The organization translated a lengthy statement signed by al-Qaeda's General Command that confirmed Osama bin Laden's death and promised retaliation for that death.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SITE_Institute

 

[Natan]

You were just completely wrong about no one having seen him.

No one of the general public. Feel free to prove me wrong and show video or photographs of him on the way to court, in court, in jail or whatever.

 

[Natan]

Does this mean you don't have any evidence of Bin Laden dying in 2001 / 2002?

I have exactly as much evidence that he died in 2001/2002 as you have that he died in 2011. ZERO. Perhaps circumstantial evidence, again, like you.

 

[A'isha]

No one of the general public. Feel free to prove me wrong and show video or photographs of him on the way to court, in court, in jail or whatever.

So the Pakistanis are in on the conspiracy?

Dr. Afridi's family is in on the conspiracy?

 

[Polaris]

I suppose the immediate loss of the part of your brain that controls pulmonary function could count as "lung disease" in a very roundabout way.

 

[000063]

NONE of this supposed "evidence" is verifiable. The DNA was not independently verified, let alone it is not known which lab originally verified it.

Yet DNA evidence has been found reliable in other cases before without "independent verification". Special pleading.

"His wife" has only been shown on Pakistani TV briefly clad in burqa, no way to verify either.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...teriorates-says-brother-Zakaria-al-Sadah.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...-Ladens-wives-are-kicked-out-of-Pakistan.html

You're saying quite a lot of people are lying now.

Omar Bin Laden has his doubts when it comes to family so you're wrong there

You are aware that his family has more than one member right?

and as to Al Qaeda, you are referring to an anonymous post from "Al Qaeda general command" on a "jihadi forum" that was announced by SITE Intel before the jihadis knew about it.

No, I am not. Good job being completely wrong, though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13313201
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13317717
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-death-vow-continue-US-terrorist-attacks.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/06/osama-bin-laden-dead-al-qaeda_n_858440.html

Both SITE Intel and IntelCenter are highly suspect in beating "Al Qaeda" to the news or being an "Al Qaeda" favorite medium even though co founder Rita Katz is a jew.

Oh, so you're an anti-semite too. Lovely. Does anyone who is not a CT find the organization "suspect"? How many of these people had any idea what the Institute was before they broke the story?

So great source, this "Al Qaeda" confirmation....

I like how you try to paint it as suspicious that and organizations that study and track terrorism were the first to find information about terrorists.

 

[000063]

So the Pakistanis are in on the conspiracy?

Dr. Afridi's family is in on the conspiracy?

It's almost as if Simon is saying whatever it takes to keep the wheels spinning.

 

[jaydeehess]

actually Simon you have no circumstantial evidence that OBL died in 2001/2002(using such a loose timeframe only underlines that point. ) What you have instead is supposition along with several othe suppositions. Your only circumstantial evidence is the varying colour of OBL's beard, which indicates nothing about when or where he die, and which has other mundane possible explanations

You will have to do better than simply taking a position contrary to the common narritive.

btw it strikes me that not getting beard colour right is a ristwatch-on-the-Roman-soldier type of mistake that the supposed fakers missed. I guess they just were'nt very good at deception

 

[ElMondoHummus]

It's almost as if Simon is saying whatever it takes to keep the wheels spinning.

Like Jay Windley said:

"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution"

Have fun with him, folks. I'm starting to get bored with this.

 

[Natan]

You continue to provide no real proof that the 2004 and 2007 videos were faked. You should look up petitio principii at some point to understand what's wrong with your statement there.

I am sorry, I pointed out that the shape of the ears, a unique characteristic, is different, as well as circumstantial evidence that the dying is off, the resolution at one point suspiciously low, there is no audio of the supposed "rehearsal tapes" released by the Pentagon and even his own son thinks Bin Laden is kind of looking weird in some videos. What "evidence" do you have other than the worthless word of some government officials who didn't verify it themselves?

Again, you're the one who's not providing any proof, yet is advancing a theory requiring the cooperation of a known terrorist organization,

Fallacy. Most of whatever "organization" was there, had long been captured or eliminated WAY before 2011.

which has not been questioned in the news,

Maybe not in your news. In my news, they showed doubts in Pakistan as to whether Bin Laden was really killed there and then. The YouTube of Bin Laden's son Omar was also from a TV program in my country.

Full stop right there. They exist. Read The Looming Tower and Ghost Wars at a minimum before trying that claim again. Also: http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Al_Qaeda_does_not_exist

Because 911myths says so, doesn't make it so. Bin Laden:

So the situation isn't like the West portrays it, that there is an 'organization' with a specific name (such as 'al-Qai`dah') and so on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJImrztINp0 at 3:33

I recall a couple of Iraqi Generals during the second invasion, as well as al-Zarqawi, mistakenly being reported as dead. Mistakes in the news can happen. Besides, that 2003 article is speculation by that Arabist. It doesn't change the fact that videos from 2004 and 2007 were released, and doesn't provide anything that contradicts them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Osama_bin_Laden_video#Questions_concerning_authenticity

Claiming suspicion about the lack of communication from a man who's been arrested in Pakistan is silly at best.

Strawman. I didn't claim that is suspicious. I am claiming that him supposedly being evidence of anything is ridiculous. The man has not been heard of.

Against that, you're facing the fact that Pakistan has reacted as though Bin Laden were indeed killed in 2011.

I'll admit that is the most difficult one pleading against me.

You're facing the fact that the news organizations airing the videos have not questioned their authenticity, and have done little above trying to handwave that away. You're facing the fact that a doctor has been imprison in Pakistan for betraying Bin Laden to the US years after your claim of his early death, another inconvenient line of evidence you're merely handwaving at but failing to refute.

Have you seen a copy of his verdict to be so sure of that?

You're facing the fact that the US spent much time, money, and resources to either fake his continued existence as well as his 2011 death.

Strawman. I am not saying the whole US government or intelligence services are behind this. Elements in the US like IntelCenter and SITE Intel do benefit from this and the amount of time and money invested in creating two videos in 2004 and 2007 has to be quite little.

 

[Natan]

So the Pakistanis are in on the conspiracy?

Dr. Afridi's family is in on the conspiracy?

Did I say that? How did you get to that?

Yet DNA evidence has been found reliable in other cases before without "independent verification". Special pleading.

So please do tell me, what lab confirmed the results? What is your source DNA testing happened AT ALL? So no body can be shown "because it would upset the jihadis", but the general public is undeserving of any other form of evidence? Laughable at best.

You are aware that his family has more than one member right?

You are aware I mentioned previously his other sons (or wives and daughters for that matter) are not exactly that available for interviews?

No, I am not. Good job being completely wrong, though.

I expressed myself wrongly. They are the original English source for the BBC, Daily Mail, Huffington Post and so forth. I meant to illustrate that SITE Intel and IntelCenter have released videos before even the jihadis knew about it, though I phrased it as if this was the case for Bin Laden's death too.

Oh, so you're an anti-semite too.

Non sequitur. Do you suppose perhaps Bin Laden and most of Al Qaeda are fond of jews or that they wouldn't know Rita Katz is one?

I like how you try to paint it as suspicious that and organizations that study and track terrorism were the first to find information about terrorists.

It is suspicious if they release it before the terrorists themselves. If you don't find that suspicious, that's your (mental) issue.

July 4, 2007: A video by Ayman al-Zawahiri was obtained by SITE "ahead of its release on the internet by militant web sites".[4] It was "first reported by IntelCenter and SITE, two U.S.-based groups that monitor militant messages".[5] The video had been "provided by al-Qaeda's as-Sahab Media to IntelCenter".[6]
Sept. 7, 2007: SITE obtained a 30-minute video of Osama bin Laden and provided it to Associated Press. bin Laden's image is "frozen" for all but 3½ minutes of the tape.[7] SITE "beat al-Qaeda by nearly a full day with the release of the ... video".[8] The US government later pronounced the video authentic. See also: 2007 Osama bin Laden video.
May 3, 2011: The organization translated a lengthy statement signed by al-Qaeda's General Command that confirmed Osama bin Laden's death and promised retaliation for that death.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SITE_Institute

 

[Natan]

actually Simon you have no circumstantial evidence that OBL died in 2001/2002

In 2007 Benazir Bhutto said Bin Laden was dead since 2002. Does THAT at least count as circumstantial evidence?

btw it strikes me that not getting beard colour right is a ristwatch-on-the-Roman-soldier type of mistake that the supposed fakers missed. I guess they just were'nt very good at deception

I guess it wasn't needed as I see a lot of people here willing to swallow anything as long as the ones in charge "confirm it", without a shred of verifiable evidence.

 

[A'isha]

Did I say that? How did you get to that?

Then why does it matter that you haven't seen any video or photographic evidence of him "on the way to court, in court, in jail or whatever"?

The Pakistanis said they have him. They've periodically released updates regarding the evidence they collected against him and the progress of his trial. His family seems to either believe them, or have seen him themselves.

The Pakistani justice system (such as it is) is not here to cater to your conspiracy-mongering needs.

 

[Natan]

Then why does it matter that you haven't seen any video or photographic evidence of him "on the way to court, in court, in jail or whatever"?

ElMondoHummus: cooperation of that Pakistani doctor who outed whoever this supposedly "fake" Bin Laden was in Pakistan last year..

It matters because the good doctor is not available to confirm that is why he is sitting in a Pakistani jail.

The Pakistanis said they have him.

Well that's for sure.

They've periodically released updates regarding the evidence they collected against him and the progress of his trial.

Source?

His family seems to either believe them, or have seen him themselves.

And source?

 

[000063]

Did I say that? How did you get to that?

Not actually answering the question.

So please do tell me, what lab confirmed the results? What is your source DNA testing happened AT ALL? So no body can be shown "because it would upset the jihadis", but the general public is undeserving of any other form of evidence? Laughable at best.

We have evidence. The DNA tests. The testimony of Osama's wife, extended family, terrorist organization. Even the President of the United States, the SecState, and a few other people. You're still special-pleading; this level of proof was not necessary for anyone else, including Saddam, who was well-known to have multiple doubles.

You are aware I mentioned previously his other sons (or wives and daughters for that matter) are not exactly that available for interviews?

By family, I meant the Bin Ladens. You know, the rich Saudi family the body was given to? You knew that, right? No complaints from them. Even Omar was complaining about the lack of a proper burial, not that his dad wasn't dead.

I expressed myself wrongly. They are the original English source for the BBC, Daily Mail, Huffington Post and so forth. I meant to illustrate that SITE Intel and IntelCenter have released videos before even the jihadis knew about it, though I phrased it as if this was the case for Bin Laden's death too.

I'm noticing a whole lot of nothing by way of evidence.

Non sequitur. Do you suppose perhaps Bin Laden and most of Al Qaeda are fond of jews or that they wouldn't know Rita Katz is one?

Non-sequitur. It doesn't matter if the guy who helped start the company is Jewish. It literally has no relevance to the conversation, so unless you were trying to imply some sort of Jewish Conspiracy, I'm not sure what the point is. I don't suppose you plan to elaborate.

It is suspicious if they release it before the terrorists themselves. If you don't find that suspicious, that's your (mental) issue.

July 4, 2007: A video by Ayman al-Zawahiri was obtained by SITE "ahead of its release on the internet by militant web sites".[4] It was "first reported by IntelCenter and SITE, two U.S.-based groups that monitor militant messages".[5] The video had been "provided by al-Qaeda's as-Sahab Media to IntelCenter".[6]
Sept. 7, 2007: SITE obtained a 30-minute video of Osama bin Laden and provided it to Associated Press. bin Laden's image is "frozen" for all but 3½ minutes of the tape.[7] SITE "beat al-Qaeda by nearly a full day with the release of the ... video".[8] The US government later pronounced the video authentic. See also: 2007 Osama bin Laden video.
May 3, 2011: The organization translated a lengthy statement signed by al-Qaeda's General Command that confirmed Osama bin Laden's death and promised retaliation for that death.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SITE_Institute

No, I don't find it suspicious that a group of religious fanatics have terrible IP security. You're being awfully vague on how SITE found the videos. Could it be that you don't know?

Maybe they just didn't password lock it properly. Maybe SITE finagled access to a Member's Only section of the forum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Osama_bin_Laden_video

The 2007 Osama bin Laden video originally appeared in a banner ad on an Islamic militant website regularly used by al-Qaeda on September 6, 2007. The ad carried a picture of bin Laden and the logo of al-Qaeda's media production company As-Sahab. An accompanying translated message read: "Soon, with the permission of God, a new visual tape, the Sheikh, the Lion, Osama bin Laden. May God protect him."[1]

The timing of the video's release coincided with the 6th anniversary of the September 11 attacks on the United States. bin Laden's previous appearance in a video was in 2004.

By September 7, 2007, United States authorities had obtained a copy of the video, even though it hadn't been officially released.[2] Soon after, the Reuters news agency released a 1-minute excerpt of the tape, which it had obtained from BNO News.

Why do you bring up SITE? If you're implying that they faked or planted the video, then say so. And how does that gel with AQ themselves releasing the video? I'm betting you're not making any direct claims because they would require evidence.

I also note how you cut this line out of my post;

Does anyone who is not a CT find the organization "suspect"? How many of these people had any idea what the Institute was before they broke the story?

Let me save you some time; no, and very few. In fact, the only reason they're suspicious is because they found the video first. Here's a much more comprehensive page than Wikipedia.

You also cut out my point about his wife being seen.