Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

marplots said:
I wish there was more in the way of an informed, current scientologist here though. It would be nice to get their perspective.
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There is. I looked over a number of your posts (not all of them) which covered a lot of different points.

I could be mistaken but it seems like one of the questions your asking is this: If we assume Scientologists are not all brain-washed cultists who have some degree of independence then what is it in Scientology they find valuable?

I saw some discussion of "workability" which I think answers the question from my perspective. Various principles learned and applied make it easier to play this game we call life. Having been a Scientologist for over three decades I find that is a simple summary.

Best
 
fredcarr said:
There is. I looked over a number of your posts (not all of them) which covered a lot of different points.

I could be mistaken but it seems like one of the questions your asking is this: If we assume Scientologists are not all brain-washed cultists who have some degree of independence then what is it in Scientology they find valuable?

I saw some discussion of "workability" which I think answers the question from my perspective. Various principles learned and applied make it easier to play this game we call life. Having been a Scientologist for over three decades I find that is a simple summary.

Best
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Have you reached OT-III? What do you think about Xenu? Really happened? Or LRon pulled it out of his ass?

What do you say about the fact LRon is widely reported (including by his own son) that the way to make money is to invent a religion?
 
fredcarr said:
There is. I looked over a number of your posts (not all of them) which covered a lot of different points.

I could be mistaken but it seems like one of the questions your asking is this: If we assume Scientologists are not all brain-washed cultists who have some degree of independence then what is it in Scientology they find valuable?

I saw some discussion of "workability" which I think answers the question from my perspective. Various principles learned and applied make it easier to play this game we call life. Having been a Scientologist for over three decades I find that is a simple summary.

Best
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Interesting that scientologists see life as game. How much does the game cost you? Scientology does not come free. Or are you one of the higher ups who makes money out of it? What do you think about the topic of the thread and all the defections?
 
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The Dark Lord said:
Have you reached OT-III? What do you think about Xenu? Really happened? Or LRon pulled it out of his ass?

What do you say about the fact LRon is widely reported (including by his own son) that the way to make money is to invent a religion?
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We've been down this road with fredcarr many times. He clams up when it comes to Xenu.
 
The Dark Lord said:
What do you say about the fact LRon is widely reported (including by his own son) that the way to make money is to invent a religion?
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I have seen this bandied about, but he was right, wasn't he? He did just what he claimed. It only comes off as a criticism if you think religions aren't invented by people.

Would it have been more palatable if he had said, "the way to make money is to address the spiritual needs of humanity?" Why should we insist that the purveyors of religion be impoverished? Seriously. Does Mother Teresa gain credibility because she was poor?

Isn't it the case otherwise in the US that we think more highly of someone when they've gone from rags to riches?
 
dafydd said:
Interesting that scientologists see life as game. How much does the game cost you? Scientology does not come free. Or are you one of the higher ups who makes money out of it? What do you think about the topic of the thread and all the defections?
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lol! The game of life is pretty darn expensive indeed. Lets see now...mortgage, car payments, raising children and lets not forget to mention taxes.

But looking at it as a game does provide an "interesting" perspective. Games have goals, rules and certain freedoms. (There are other elements as well.)

Using chess as an analogy (probably not a very good one as life is certainly far more complex than a simple chess game) but it might provide a microcosm look at certain elements and basic principles.

I learned how to play chess but later found that simply knowing how to move the pieces was just the very beginning. Learning principles like control the center and end game fundamentals made it easier to play the game at a higher level.

I view life like that as well. Life has certain principles which if understood and applied can help you play that particular game better. At the very least it gives a slightly less serious aspect to existence which can make life more tolerable. On the other end of the spectrum it can help one "win" the game of life. (That of course is a rather broad and vague statement which could be open to lots of interpretation and opinion.)

There are different games - not everyone likes chess. Some may have played chess and then decided not to play it anymore and instead play something else. Some might even start anti-chess crusades:)

Its certainly another aspect to the game of life.
 
marplots said:
I have seen this bandied about, but he was right, wasn't he? He did just what he claimed. It only comes off as a criticism if you think religions aren't invented by people.

Would it have been more palatable if he had said, "the way to make money is to address the spiritual needs of humanity?" Why should we insist that the purveyors of religion be impoverished? Seriously. Does Mother Teresa gain credibility because she was poor?

Isn't it the case otherwise in the US that we think more highly of someone when they've gone from rags to riches?
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He didn't though. He had no humanitarian motives, he just saw a way to cynically start a crackpot cult and rake in the money.

''Never discuss Scientology with the critic. Just discuss his or her crimes, known and unknown''. - L. Ron Hubbard

'' We are slowly and carefully teaching the unholy a lesson. It is as follows: We are not a law enforcement agency. BUT we will become interested in the crimes of people who seek to stop us. If you oppose scientology we promptly look up - and find and expose - your crimes. If you leave us alone we will leave you alone. It's very simple. Even a fool can grasp that. And don't underrate our ability to carry it out.'' - L. Ron Hubbard

"Show me any person who is critical of us and I'll show you crimes and intended crimes that would stand a magistrate's hair on end." - L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Bulletin, 4 April 1965
( nb I have never been in trouble with the law)

"Unfortunately, it is all too often true that suppressors to a creative action must be removed before construction and creation takes place. Any person very high on the Tone Scale may level destruction toward a suppressor." - L. Ron Hubbard, SCIENCE OF SURVIVAL, p. 159

"The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win. The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he is not authorized, will generally be sufficient to cause his professional decease. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly." - L. Ron Hubbard, A MANUAL ON THE DISSEMINATION OF MATERIAL, 1955

"In short a staff member can get away with murder so long as his statistic is up and can't sneeze without a chop if it's down. ... When people do start reporting a staff member with a high statistic, what you investigate is the person who turned in the report." - L. Ron Hubbard, HCO PL 1 September 1965, "Ethics Protection"

"When we need somebody haunted we investigate.When we investigate we do so noisily always." - L. Ron Hubbard, MANUAL OF JUSTICE, 1959

"People attack Scientology, I never forget it, always even the score. People attack auditors, or staff, or organisations, or me. I never forget until the slate is clear." - L. Ron Hubbard, MANUAL OF JUSTICE, 1959

"So we listen. We add up associations of people with people. When a push against Scientology starts somewhere, we go over the people involved and weed them out. Push vanishes." - L. Ron Hubbard, MANUAL OF JUSTICE, 1959

"A psychiatrist today has the power to (1) take a fancy to a woman (2) lead her to take wild treatment as a joke (3) drug and shock her to temporary insanity (4) incarnate [sic] her (5) use her sexually (6) sterilise her to prevent conception (7) kill her by a brain operation to prevent disclosure. And all with no fear of reprisal. Yet it is rape and murder. We want at least one bad mark on every psychiatrist in England, a murder, an assault, or a rape or more than one. This is Project Psychiatry. We will remove them." - L. Ron Hubbard, Sec ED, Office of LRH, Confidential, 22 February 1966, "Project Psychiatry"

"I'm drinking lots of rum and popping pinks and greys." - L. Ron Hubbard in a 1967 letter to his wife, written during the period when he was creating Scientology's secret "upper levels." (Bent Corydon and L. Ron Hubbard, Jr. a.k.a. Ronald DeWolf, "L. RON HUBBARD: MESSIAH OR MADMAN?" Random House 1989)

"Leukaemia is evidently psychosomatic in origin and at least eight cases of leukaemia had been treated successfully by Dianetics after medicine had traditionally given up. The source of leukaemia has been reported to be an engram containing the phrase 'It turns my blood to water.'" - L. Ron Hubbard, "Journal of Scientology," Issue 15-G, 1953




"Better than 90 percent of what my father has written about himself is untrue." - Ron deWolf, son of L. Ron Hubbard





A lovely guy was Ron. Full of the milk of human kindness. What do you think of your founder, fredcarr? hgc was right, you do clam up when asked about Xenu.
 
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marplots said:
I have seen this bandied about, but he was right, wasn't he? He did just what he claimed. It only comes off as a criticism if you think religions aren't invented by people.

Would it have been more palatable if he had said, "the way to make money is to address the spiritual needs of humanity?" Why should we insist that the purveyors of religion be impoverished? Seriously. Does Mother Teresa gain credibility because she was poor?
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It is a criticism because he made up a bunch of nonsense presented as truth with the express purpose of becoming rich. He was a conman.

Isn't it the case otherwise in the US that we think more highly of someone when they've gone from rags to riches?
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I dunno about you, but I don't think highly of anyone who makes a lot of money as a conman.
 
fredcarr said:
Using chess as an analogy...

I view life like that as well. Life has certain principles which if understood and applied can help you play that particular game better..
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My radar is on instant red when a simple question is answered with "let me talk about something else".

The little children need an analogy because the thing itself is beyond their comprehension? It's just so patronizing. The one thing for sure with Scientologists is manipulation and deception.
 
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AlaskaBushPilot said:
My radar is on instant red when a simple question is answered with "let me talk about something else".

The little children need an analogy because the thing itself is beyond their comprehension? It's just so patronizing. The one thing for sure with Scientologists is manipulation and deception.
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It is nothing but manipulation and deception. Judging by the scientologists that we get here, I am not impressed by these higher level supermen. Did you hear that Tom Cruises's wallet was stolen by a pickpocket? How could anybody stoop so low?
 
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AlaskaBushPilot said:
My radar is on instant red when a simple question is answered with "let me talk about something else".

The little children need an analogy because the thing itself is beyond their comprehension? It's just so patronizing. The one thing for sure with Scientologists is manipulation and deception.
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Oh, you old stick in the mud. Anyone can play...

...

Life is like a machine. If you turn the knobs and press the buttons according to this handy-dandy instruction manual (accept no imitations), it'll run like a real humdinger. As you approach the pinnacle of low-frictionality, you'll find yourself becoming a perpetual motion machine; you'll live forever.

...

Life is like a dairy cow. If you pasture her in my Elysian Fields, rub her hide with blessed nectar of Maple (available in 12.5 cup tins), and milk her utterly twice per day, she'll nourish and extend your omega zetan.
 
The Dark Lord said:
It is a criticism because he made up a bunch of nonsense presented as truth with the express purpose of becoming rich. He was a conman.

I dunno about you, but I don't think highly of anyone who makes a lot of money as a conman.
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dafydd said:
Yes, by other means than being a cheap evil con man.
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When I was young, when I was thirsty, I drank water from the tap. It was so close to free we'd let it run down the sink just to get a cooler drink. Now, water has been packaged and is sold in bottles next to the sodas.

Somewhere along the way, water was packaged and recast as worth spending hard cash for. Was that an evil con? Could be. It certainly is huge money.

My purpose isn't to justify Scientology by drawing the parallel, just to point out how easily the "con" idea gets thrown around. It becomes a comment on modern marketing more than anything else. Am I being conned when I am told that the Most Interesting Man in the World drinks Dos Equis? Kinda.

If the idea is new to you, I can understand the outrage. But this is the way the world operates, at least the way mass marketing operates. The question, as it relates to Scientology is whether or not they are delivering on their promises. Whatever the promise happens to be, beyond the hype and the colorful language. Do they deliver on their claims or not?

Aquafina costs a buck. But on the label it says "water" and by God Almighty, that's what's in the bottle. I can gripe all day about how they sell me stuff I can get at any drinking fountain, but they haven't lied. The label says exactly what it is. That's the proper basis for deciding "evil con."

It sounds to me that some are disappointed because Scientology isn't as holy as they would have it be. That's a strawman. What does the label say the ingredients are, and what's in the bottle?
 
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fredcarr said:
There is. I looked over a number of your posts (not all of them) which covered a lot of different points.

I could be mistaken but it seems like one of the questions your asking is this: If we assume Scientologists are not all brain-washed cultists who have some degree of independence then what is it in Scientology they find valuable?

I saw some discussion of "workability" which I think answers the question from my perspective. Various principles learned and applied make it easier to play this game we call life. Having been a Scientologist for over three decades I find that is a simple summary.

Best
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Excellent. Can you comment on how Scientologists are painted as gullible fools who are stuck in a never ending con game?

Do you find value in Scientology and does it fulfill its promises?
 
hgc said:
Life is like a dairy cow.
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I couldn't help myself either. They're pretty inane.


Being a skeptic is like being one of the little yellow petals on a dandy-lion, or like a fin on the bottom of a catfish, or maybe "truth or dare"... :rolleyes:


The American Religious Identification Survey numbers on Scientology: (This is from the ARIS study, breakdown of Scientology estimates for the USA, provided on Operation Clambake.)

1990 45,000
2001 55,000
2008 25,000


The sampling error is in the tens of thousands because Scientology is so SMALL you would have to survey about 20 million people to get a reliable figure. In the 50,000 range and falling is a rough approximation.
 
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