Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[dafydd]

Would this be an example of irony?

I think so.

http://www.xenu.net/roland-intro.html

''The results of applying their crackpot psychotherapy (called "auditing") is to weaken the mind. The mind goes from a rational state to an irrational one as the delusional contents of the subconscious mind are brought to the surface and are assumed to be valid. It also makes a person more susceptible to suggestion since it submerges the critical thinking faculties of the mind into a partial subconscious state. It results in a permanent light hypnotic trance and so from thenceforth that person can be more easily controlled. The person will, to a much greater extent, believe and do whatever they are told. And of course this is used to the full in persuading them to hand over further money and dedicating themselves further to the cult.''

 

[Halfcentaur]

I thought we were through with Lisa. The policy was changed and applied wrongly by incompetent people. I don't think the policy should have been used. Policies like this aren't used in the Freezone.

Thousands have been killed by bad psychiatric results. Thousands have been killed by bad police policy. Thousands have been killed by 'friendly fire' in the military. Thousands have died building big buildings and bridges.

They goofed badly. It was a triple goof. Government has also endorsed projects that goofed and killed. It's too bad.

Scientology says that all accidents are the result of an SP. I'm sure you could find an SP in Scientology. It has happened.

When someone accuses you of something or points out your errors, you pointing out that other people do it too is not a defense. Nor is pointing out that other people do it a denial that you do it.

It's a childish manipulative tactic designed to manipulate through distraction.

 

[dafydd]

It's a childish manipulative tactic designed to manipulate through distraction.

http://www.lermanet.com/exit/confusion-technique.htm

 

[Myriad]

Sometimes OT phenomena are like the things that happen in Matrix.

So, OT's are just like those swarms of robot squids that attach themselves to hover-ships and cut through their hull with lasers?

Perhaps you could be more specific -- sometimes OT phenomena are like which things, specifically, that happen in The Matrix? One or two examples will do.

A lot of the benefit from the OT levels comes from the setups. Some comes from a feeling that you are less helpless to an understanding of the OT realm.

Good feelings can certainly be beneficial in some circumstances. But feelings occur in the mind. Are you again saying that OT abilities to be a cause over MEST occur only in the OT's mind?


ETA: I'm also still curious about what are the OT postulates that you mentioned before, and what does it mean to convert one into inspiration? An example or two would be very helpful for understanding what you meant there.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[marplots]

I understand the objection about Hubbard being an SF writer and even the story about Scientology being a con to make money. What I am curious about is how that explains Scientology now, without Hubbard.

Is it that the conned adopted the role of conman? Do you think the current honchos at Scientology are believers or not?

If the system is based entirely on fraud, how is it perpetuated? Can it be that the system itself fills the role of bad-check passer or does David Miscavige have to hold that role (I mean necessarily).

Can the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz not know he is but a man?

 

[steve s]

I understand the objection about Hubbard being an SF writer and even the story about Scientology being a con to make money. What I am curious about is how that explains Scientology now, without Hubbard.

Is it that the conned adopted the role of conman? Do you think the current honchos at Scientology are believers or not?

If the system is based entirely on fraud, how is it perpetuated? Can it be that the system itself fills the role of bad-check passer or does David Miscavige have to hold that role (I mean necessarily).

Can the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz not know he is but a man?

The same way Mormanism survive without Joseph Smith.

 

[devnull]

If the system is based entirely on fraud, how is it perpetuated?

As far as I know, it isn't. Isn't scientology dying? The church here is very rarely open anymore, and they don't even bother trying their "free stress test nonsense" anymore.

 

[BStrong]

My conclusion after reading through most (not all) of the posts in this thread over the course of the last months:

The CoS is a for-profit enterprise created by LRH, masquerading as a religon.

LRH created a structure that put his person at the very center of this for-profit enterprise.

LRH created a mythology designed to be just ambiguous enough to accomodate individuals expectations, and still allow for them to continue in the program when their expectations weren't met.

LRH's successors (whether they're mythology believers or co-conspirators) have continued the operation as a FPE.

Because the operation would be unable to withstand scrutiny as a belief system if the mythology was presented as a whole, the mythology is presented in stages, which also allows the fleece to run in stages, so as not to scare off the mark.

Because the mythology is on the level of a bad sci-fi novel, the operation cloaks it in secrecy, and takes measures to ensure that the mythology (as much as possible) is kept under the operation's control.

There's more I could note, but it all comes down to the same conclusion, CoS is designed and operated as a money making scheme, and any benefit derived by CoS participants is stricly coincidental.

 

[marplots]

(snipped to get to this part)... CoS is designed and operated as a money making scheme, and any benefit derived by CoS participants is stricly coincidental.

Who gets the money?

 

[Justinian2]

Gullible people being conned out of their money is never a joke.

We've established you remarks aren't jokes, they aren't clever and they aren't truthful.

So they are religious slurs, is that correct?

 

[pakeha]

Justinian, you seem to think other people have agreed to see Scientology as a religion. In any case, do you see Scientology as a religion?

Anyway.
Having an OTVII in the discussion is an opportunity to learn more about Scientology, so here go some more questions1

I compared the policy used on Lisa written during the LRH era with the policy written during the Miscavige era. The policies were almost totally different.

I'd be interested in reading about the differences, Justinian. Could you explain what differentiates the two policies?

Furthermore, the policy wasn't applied with any logic or even common sense. ...I don't even think the policy should have been applied. Let the psychiatrists handle the nut jobs. ...

I'm surprised you write off an OTVIII as a 'nut job'.
Do you think your supervisors are better than were Lisa Ferguson's?

I thought we were through with Lisa. The policy was changed and applied wrongly by incompetent people. I don't think the policy should have been used. Policies like this aren't used in the Freezone.

Why would you think we were through talking about the deceased?
What were your reactions at the time all this happened? I may never have another opportunity to talk to someone who was in Scientology when this occurred and because of the consequences of this death, I'd hoped you'd be willing to share how you lived it.

Sometimes OT phenomena are like the things that happen in Matrix.

A lot of the benefit from the OT levels comes from the setups. Some comes from a feeling that you are less helpless to an understanding of the OT realm.

Being in session with the auditor for a couple of days seems to cause psychic phenomenon.

You've been on both sides of the cans, Justinian, so you know how easy it is to lead a person 'experiencing' phenomena into thinking they're more than a product of the brain's activity.
Especially after a couple of days of sessions.

Scientology says that all accidents are the result of an SP. I'm sure you could find an SP in Scientology. It has happened.

Here's what RLH said on the subject:

You should upgrade your idea of what an SP is. Man, meet one sometime! A real one! A real monster....Well, in all the time we've been around here we only had one SP that I know of. One real SP that was on staff.... And I don't know of another single SP that we've ever had on staff. Isn't that interesting. You see all these SP orders and so on...Don't throw it around carelessly, because this is an--a very exaggerated condition, SP

Suppressive_Person^WP

This sounds a lot like the 'Evil Eye' and similar notions.
Do you really believe in SPs and their influence over others?

 

[marplots]

Anybody who believes nonsense made up by a hack sci-fi writer in order to make money is certainly gullible.

I understand this might be just your opinion, but I see it so often, I wonder that it hasn't become just an uninformed meme.

His bibliography is listed on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard_bibliography). An early work, as one example, was "To the Stars" published in 1950, the same year as Dianetics.

Wiki has this on "To the Stars":

The book was generally positively received, and garnered a 2001 nomination for a "Retro" Hugo Award for Best Novella. Publishers Weekly gave the book a positive review, calling it one of Hubbard's "finest works", and Alan Cheuse highlighted the work on National Public Radio's program All Things Considered as a top literature holiday pick.

My criticism is that some who use the "hack" appellation haven't even read his works and certainly aren't familiar with their literary value.

If I'm right, that doesn't reflect well on those who would be skeptics and critical thinkers, it just sounds like parroting the crowd. It's one thing to dislike or disagree with Scientology, but the ad hom is overkill.

I'd also like to point out Mitt Romney said "Battlefield Earth" was his favorite novel -- I don't suppose he's a supporter of Scientology?

(Since I expect someone will ask, is the New York Times good enough for a cite? http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/romney-favors-hubbard-novel/ )

 

[The Dark Lord]

I understand this might be just your opinion, but I see it so often, I wonder that it hasn't become just an uninformed meme.

His bibliography is listed on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard_bibliography). An early work, as one example, was "To the Stars" published in 1950, the same year as Dianetics.

Wiki has this on "To the Stars":


My criticism is that some who use the "hack" appellation haven't even read his works and certainly aren't familiar with their literary value.

If I'm right, that doesn't reflect well on those who would be skeptics and critical thinkers, it just sounds like parroting the crowd. It's one thing to dislike or disagree with Scientology, but the ad hom is overkill.

I'd also like to point out Mitt Romney said "Battlefield Earth" was his favorite novel -- I don't suppose he's a supporter of Scientology?

(Since I expect someone will ask, is the New York Times good enough for a cite? http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/romney-favors-hubbard-novel/ )

You're right, I haven't actually ready any of his novels.

 

[pakeha]

I understand this might be just your opinion, but I see it so often, I wonder that it hasn't become just an uninformed meme. ...


My criticism is that some who use the "hack" appellation haven't even read his works and certainly aren't familiar with their literary value.

If I'm right, that doesn't reflect well on those who would be skeptics and critical thinkers, it just sounds like parroting the crowd. It's one thing to dislike or disagree with Scientology, but the ad hom is overkill. ...

Have you read any of his sci-fi?
Could you lead me to an on-line source for some Sunday reading?

 

[marplots]

Have you read any of his sci-fi?
Could you lead me to an on-line source for some Sunday reading?

Not much. I read Battlefield Earth. At the time I had no idea who Hubbard was (probably mid-80's?) -- I thought it was pretty good in a "cowboy western" sort of way. It's a huge book, but I had a lot of time for reading then. I preferred Asimov by a mile, but at least for that book, hack seems unkind.

My brother was keen on the "Mission Earth" series, but I haven't read them.

 

[dafydd]

We've established you remarks aren't jokes, they aren't clever and they aren't truthful.

So they are religious slurs, is that correct?

Wrong on all counts. They are legitimate remarks about a looney cult.

 

[ddt]

We've established you remarks aren't jokes, they aren't clever and they aren't truthful.

So they are religious slurs, is that correct?

For dafydd's remarks to be "religious slurs", you'd first have to convince that Scientology is a religion. It is not. It's a money-making scheme dressed up as a religion. In fact, in Belgium (dafydd's country of residence) Scientology is being prosecuted as a criminal organization. (link).

 

[dafydd]

For dafydd's remarks to be "religious slurs", you'd first have to convince that Scientology is a religion. It is not. It's a money-making scheme dressed up as a religion. In fact, in Belgium (dafydd's country of residence) Scientology is being prosecuted as a criminal organization. (link).

If anyone wants a translation of that page I will be happy to oblige. The Belgian authorities are well aware that Scientology is a dangerous money making scam.

http://www.lermanet.com/LRonHubbard5.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/world/europe/05briefs-scientology.html

 

[Cleon]

I read Battlefield Earth, and the experience ensured that I would never again read any LRH material, sci-fi or religious sci-fi.

 

[sadhatter]

You're right, I haven't actually ready any of his novels.

I have, and if i am going to read a mediocre author with wacky beliefs, i'll stick with Dafydd Ab Hugh, at least the doom books were pretty decent.