Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TheL8Elvis]

You never heard of families choosing to not discuss abuse?? It happens.

You never heard of families supporting their children when they claim they were abused ? It happens

Also, families usually speak up if someone lies.

There is nothing 'usual' about this

Your "lets flip it around" analogy is not equal and it is flawed.

Yeah, I'm still waiting for you to explain why with something other than naked assertions that things just work that way.

Did you miss the part where the victim, the families, the defense, and the prosecution did not want this to come out?? It was only revealed because the prosecution did not make it clear to the Judge that the statement was only about the racism.

So ? The cat is out of the bag. It's out now, so what's the relevance ?

What is stopping the parents from publicly supporting their daughter at this point ? She says she told them, and they remain silent about it. It makes her look all alone and unsupported to me.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

#2: Repeatedly ask for evidence that cases that are outside of their Statue of Limitations have been prosecuted. First of all that makes ZERO sense. Secondly, it has nothing at all to do with whether or not the girl was molested.

I believe Triforcharity claims that there is no SOL on this case. (he can please correct me if I am mistaken)

No one was ridiculous enough to ask for a case that was prosecuted after the SOL on it had expired ... what was asked for was a similar case (close in age, cousins) where rape was claimed years after the fact and the case was prosecuted.

I think it goes to the likelihood of GZ being prosecuted for this ... i.e. if it will ever go beyond accusations.
If it never goes beyond accusations, how should we treat it ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Well, we do know that the wife loves credit cards:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8458996#post8458996

Then again, this is America, everyone has 5 credit cards....

Here are the bond conditions just so we can be specific:

So, IOW, there is nothing in there to support Unabogies ridiculous claims that GZ will be violating his bond because his father has a website and a Paypal account.

 

[Kaosium]

I'm very familiar with the term.

Perhaps you'd like to discuss the rest of your post that I responded to.

But, if you want to distance yourself from that idiotic position of yours, I would understand.

The rest of your post is why the concept of innocent until proven guilty is especially important in a age when outrage is so easy to generate and transmit through media, especially the internet. Stop and think what the likely end result of taking a charge like this at face value might lead to, especially considering how emotive it is.

People know that.

 

[Kaosium]

OK so far we have from the attack the victim crowd:

#1: Repeatedly say that it happened when they were 8. Ignore the fact that she claims to be in fear and to have been raped over the course of her entire childhood.

#2: Repeatedly ask for evidence that cases that are outside of their Statue of Limitations have been prosecuted. First of all that makes ZERO sense. Secondly, it has nothing at all to do with whether or not the girl was molested.

#3: Repeatedly frame the story to make it sound like both parties gave consent. Completely ignore the fact that she claims to have resisted and it was forced.

Am I missing any arguments that stoop to such disgusting levels as those??

We cannot live in a world when an accusation is assumed true simply because it's made. You and Tri-Charity are prime examples of why. That's the only level I will discuss this with you two from now on, I don't think you're thinking through the implications of what extreme conclusions you're jumping to from such limited data could lead to.

 

[This is The End]

What is stopping the parents from publicly supporting their daughter at this point ? She says she told them, and they remain silent about it. It makes her look all alone and unsupported to me.

I told you about 5 times a good reason why.

Also, I believe the highlighted is very telling.

 

[This is The End]

OK so far we have from the attack the victim crowd:

#1: Repeatedly say that it happened when they were 8. Ignore the fact that she claims to be in fear and to have been raped over the course of her entire childhood.

#2: Repeatedly ask for evidence that cases that are outside of their Statue of Limitations have been prosecuted. First of all that makes ZERO sense. Secondly, it has nothing at all to do with whether or not the girl was molested.

#3: Repeatedly frame the story to make it sound like both parties gave consent. Completely ignore the fact that she claims to have resisted and it was forced.

Am I missing any arguments that stoop to such disgusting levels as those??

We cannot live in a world when an accusation is assumed true simply because it's made. You and Tri-Charity are prime examples of why. That's the only level I will discuss this with you two from now on, I don't think you're thinking through the implications of what extreme conclusions you're jumping to from such limited data could lead to.

I literally do not think you believe those 3 examples have anything to do with "innocent until proven guilty". I'm convinced that you know exactly what you are doing here.

 

[This is The End]

So, IOW, there is nothing in there to support Unabogies ridiculous claims that GZ will be violating his bond because his father has a website and a Paypal account.

So Unabogie asking if it is a violation to have a dummy account = a claim that GZ will be violating his bond because his father has an account??

Seriously??

 

[triforcharity]

I believe Triforcharity claims that there is no SOL on this case. (he can please correct me if I am mistaken)

Well, mostly correct. I haven't listened to W9's statement of the abuse, but if there was some kind of force involved, or threats of violence, then yes, there is no SOL in Florida for those specific crimes.

 

[This is The End]

I believe Triforcharity claims that there is no SOL on this case. (he can please correct me if I am mistaken)

No one was ridiculous enough to ask for a case that was prosecuted after the SOL on it had expired ... what was asked for was a similar case (close in age, cousins) where rape was claimed years after the fact and the case was prosecuted.

I think it goes to the likelihood of GZ being prosecuted for this ... i.e. if it will ever go beyond accusations.
If it never goes beyond accusations, how should we treat it ?

You know damn well what is going on here.

Whether or not the case is investigated or prosecuted has nothing at all to do with whether or not the allegations are true.

I'm not saying we should believe her without question either. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

This "nothing is illegal if you don't get caught" mentally will not fly on a skeptics forum.

Neither will claiming that people believe her 100% without question.

Two completely different extremes.

 

[triforcharity]

The rest of your post is why the concept of innocent until proven guilty is especially important in a age when outrage is so easy to generate and transmit through media, especially the internet. Stop and think what the likely end result of taking a charge like this at face value might lead to, especially considering how emotive it is.

People know that.

So, you're sticking to the claim that this case specifically is just "kissing cousins". Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying your disgusting position on sexual battery/rape.

And where did I make ANY claim that GZ is not innocent until proven guilty? I'd personally would LOVE to see a prosecutor bring formal charges against GZ for raping his cousin. We'd then have a nice little trial, and he could be put in prison if he is convicted. I'd most likely drive to Sanford to watch it too.

 

[This is The End]

Well, mostly correct. I haven't listened to W9's statement of the abuse, but if there was some kind of force involved, or threats of violence, then yes, there is no SOL in Florida for those specific crimes.

Certain posters want to highlight the fact that Z has not been convicted for the molestation, and because of that we should completely ignore the claims.

It's just one of the less dirty of the attack the victim tactics they are partaking in.

Kids that suffered molestation growing up very often do not reveal it until much later in life. It is very common.

Frankly, blaming them for not wanting to come out soon enough that it could be stopped or that more specific evidence can be gathered is sick and disgusting.

So is blaming the family for not wanting to discuss it against the victims wishes.

 

[triforcharity]

We cannot live in a world when an accusation is assumed true simply because it's made.

I agree.

You and Tri-Charity are prime examples of why.

Do you even know my position WRT: the claims of W9? You don't do you? Alright then. Until you do, I think it would be best to ask me before you post my name to any kind of assumption.

That's the only level I will discuss this with you two from now on, I don't think you're thinking through the implications of what extreme conclusions you're jumping to from such limited data could lead to.

Extreme conclusion? What would that be? That, according to Florida state statutes, sexual battery is against the law, and if found guilty should be sentenced accordingly?

Because THAT sir IS my position. I take a victim's claims at face value. Sorry that you seem to think this is just an issue of kissing cousins, which I've shown it is not.

But, you're welcome to have that disgusting position. I prefer to go with the fact that if you diddle someone else, against their will, it's a crime. PERIOD.

 

[This is The End]

If this is going on here, I can't imagine how much they are attacking and lying about this poor girl at other forums like that treehouse place...

Then again there is probably no one to even try and defend her there. They probably all just serve as a sounding board for each other....

And before someone says it, yes there is probably a website of the other extreme where everyone believes her 100% without question.

 

[Kaosium]

So, you're sticking to the claim that this case specifically is just "kissing cousins". Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying your disgusting position on sexual battery/rape.

You have no idea what my position on sexual battery/rape is, neither do I know what yours is either. That's because different definitions of the two have become conflated in this discussion. I was unaware she had included 'force' in her description, if so that also makes her unwillingness to use the words 'I'll tell Mommy and Daddy' stranger, as that's what kids generally do when forced to do things they don't want to by other kids subject to the same authority. That's what I'm getting at by wondering if it might be best to just let this particular facet of case die, it starts to implicate other people she might not want to see become involved.

And where did I make ANY claim that GZ is not innocent until proven guilty? I'd personally would LOVE to see a prosecutor bring formal charges against GZ for raping his cousin. We'd then have a nice little trial, and he could be put in prison if he is convicted. I'd most likely drive to Sanford to watch it too.

Do you think it is likely to happen, and if not, why?

 

[triforcharity]

Certain posters want to highlight the fact that Z has not been convicted for the molestation, and because of that we should completely ignore the claims.

It's just one of the less dirty of the attack the victim tactics they are partaking in.

Yeah, I kinda got that insinuation also. I don't know if that's their actual position, but it appears that way to me also.

Kids that suffered molestation growing up very often do not reveal it until much later in life. It is very common.

I know this to be true from personal experience. It took me almost 25 years to tell anyone. Even my wife. So, the fact that it took GZ being accused of murder to get W9 to open up, doesn't surprise me in the least.

It took a near-death experience for me to tell anyone and seek counseling.

Frankly, blaming them for not wanting to come out soon enough that it could be stopped or that more specific evidence can be gathered is sick and disgusting.

Agreed, 100%. Obviously, some people do not know much about sexual abuse victims and the psychology surrounding such.

So is blaming the family for not wanting to discuss it against the victims wishes.

I still don't understand why ANYONE would think that because the victim's family isn't coming to the press to support their relative, means that they are not supporting them. Investigations like this are touchy subjects to most families, and want to deal with it privately. And rightfully so.

 

[KatieG]

You have no idea what my position on sexual battery/rape is, neither do I know what yours is either. That's because different definitions of the two have become conflated in this discussion. I was unaware she had included 'force' in her description, if so that also makes her unwillingness to use the words 'I'll tell Mommy and Daddy' stranger, as that's what kids generally do when forced to do things they don't want to by other kids subject to the same authority. That's what I'm getting at by wondering if it might be best to just let this particular facet of case die, it starts to implicate other people she might not want to see become involved.



Do you think it is likely to happen, and if not, why?

OMG, I can't believe you really typed that and you think it's valid. Do you know anything about sexual child abuse? Honestly, this is beyond disgusting. If kids always spoke up or threatened to tell "mommy and daddy", there would be very little child abuse. Nice corner, hate the paint color you chose.

 

[This is The End]

I still don't understand why ANYONE would think that because the victim's family isn't coming to the press to support their relative, means that they are not supporting them. Investigations like this are touchy subjects to most families, and want to deal with it privately. And rightfully so.

It's just cover for attacking the victim.

We as skeptics should not believe her 100%, that doesn't mean that we should believe her 0%!

We should say we will wait and see, but if the story is mostly logical and not contradictory we should assume that it is possibly true.

Not say: Her family doesn't support her, so I don't believe her. Or: They haven't charged him yet, so I don't believe her. Or: It's been 10 years so I don't believe her. Or any number of inane reasons for making it seem OK that you flat out accuse her of making it up.

 

[Kaosium]

OMG, I can't believe you really typed that and you think it's valid. Do you know anything about sexual child abuse? Honestly, this is beyond disgusting. If kids always spoke up or threatened to tell "mommy and daddy", there would be very little child abuse. Nice corner, hate the paint color you chose.

Look into why Janet Reno might have chose to become a member of the Innocence Project. She prosecuted with special zeal a number of cases like this and ruined many people's lives.

Then she found out they were innocent, and why the 'abuse' came to the fore.

 

[KatieG]

Look into why Janet Reno might have chose to become a member of the Innocence Project. She prosecuted with special zeal a number of cases like this and ruined many people's lives.

Then she found out they were innocent, and why the 'abuse' came to the fore.

There are thousands of cases of child abuse every year. I'm a firm believer in "better 9 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man be convicted" but not every child is lying about their abuse. Prosecutors deal with that sort of thing all the time. They do the best they can with what they have available, sometimes things go horribly wrong.