JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

Status
Not open for further replies.
So O'Conner is an unreliable witness who changes his story. And the quote you possited as evidence was innaccurate. Were you aware that your witness altered his story from there being no brain to some brain when you quoted him, and if so why rely on an untrue statement?

Thank you for clarifying that there is no conflict between the witness testemony only if you disregard one of the statements and substitute in an entirely different statement.

Also: Why do you think Clark was unable to determine if the wound was caused by the entry or exit of a projectile?

Care to supply any quote from the WC testemony where Clark quantified "large" in any way that invalidates the known entry wound?

Baloney. O'Connor did not "change" his testimony. The whole point of the 40 plus witness list is that all of them gave witness to a large blow-out hole in the back of K's head. That's confirmed by O'Connor and Dr. Kemp Clark. K's brains were blown out the back of his head and neither you nor McAdams nor any of the remaining remnants of your Amen chorus can deal with it.
Fact is, you are at a disadvantage. It's so much easier to prove the truth, than to defend a lie.
 
Fact is, you are at a disadvantage. It's so much easier to prove the truth, than to defend a lie.

Then why haven't you? All you have presented is some mildly ambiguous witness testimony - much of it many years after the fact, and thus tainted by the simple fact that the human brain has no error checking or correction on memories - that you have taken away from the context of the physical evidence. Care to debate that physical evidence, Robert? Are you ever going to address JayUtah's points concerning Jack White's expertise in photographic analysis, or lack thereof?
 
Baloney. O'Connor did not "change" his testimony. The whole point of the 40 plus witness list is that all of them gave witness to a large blow-out hole in the back of K's head. That's confirmed by O'Connor and Dr. Kemp Clark.

So he didn't change his testemony and still maintains there were no brains left for Clark to examine?

Odd because if that is not what he says (and may want to check your own statements a few posts ago) that would be a change.



And now perhaps you can actually get around to explaining why clark was unable to determine if the wound on the back of the head was entry or exit, how he examined it with out rolling JFK over, that the entry wound on the back of the head and not that on the temple, or indeed the total wound path, was what was described in the press conference, and quantify why "large" and "gaping" are not compatible with the entry wound. Clark does not describe a blow out. Nor does he disagree with the WC conclusions, other than in your own interpretation of subjective, valueless words.

O'conner is clearly unreliable, and the quote you posted as the "final nail" contradicts, or is contradicted by other evidence.



Would you like to review the last few hundred pages Robert, reading your own posts and think very carefully about which other evidence that you posted might cause further contradictions?

I would recommend you look at the drawings you repeatedly claimed were the best evidence, and compare them to the descriptions the likes of Clark went on record with. Youmay want to be sure your witnesses weren't claiming to look at regions of JFKs head that would have been completely removed should the drawings be accurate.
 
It's so much easier to prove the truth, than to defend a lie.

It certainly is.

It's much easier to point out that a man who says the brain was completely gone, then changed his story to say it hadn't changed his story. A handful of brains is not no brains.

It is also easy to point out that a doofus holding a stick differently to LHO is not evidence of how LHO should have been in shadow.

It is easier to note you have not been able to produce a single photo-artefact in any autopsy photo, photo of JFK in the plaza, or frame of film that indicates the emulsion has been cut or composited or painted, than it would be lie about having evidence of forgery or fakery.

Why it is also easier to point out that the latent fingerprints taken from the rifle are in a powder medium and not ink, and could not be taken from a corpse. Gosh, justifying that lie must be a burden.

Perhaps we should discuss the laws of physics againand your claim that the z film shows the mass ejecta form an exploding bullet hitting JFK from the front. Perhaps now is the time to ask once again how all that ejecta got out of the small hole you claim it left, in the pattern you claim.

I dare say with the facts stacked against you it is no wonder you resorted to contradicting your own witness on how much "creative license" his co-writers took, cropping and rotating images to misrepresent them, or resorting to the word "baloney" or seeking meaningless reasons not to address inconvenient rebuttles.


It truly is far simpler for those of us with the facts on our side.
 
Fact is, you are at a disadvantage.

I'm sure the readers believe you, because there's such an outpouring of support for your position and such a chorus of thanks for how much you've enlightened them. Oh wait, that praise is for your critics. Robert Prey: A Legend In His Own Mind.

...It's so much easier to prove the truth, than to defend a lie.

And what "truth" are you trying to prove? You have no testable theory. You've presented nothing beyond what your conspiracy authors have been peddling to the paranoid and gullible for the past forty years: a vague accusation that, "the Warren Commission was somehow wrong!" It's cute that you, White, Fetzer, and all those others want to play amateur detective. But the fact remains that you have absolutely nothing beyond some vague handwaving accusations of impropriety here, patently false and desperate accusations of forgery there, and a big huge chip on your shoulder. None of that impresses anyone.
 
Baloney. O'Connor did not "change" his testimony. The whole point of the 40 plus witness list is that all of them gave witness to a large blow-out hole in the back of K's head. That's confirmed by O'Connor and Dr. Kemp Clark. K's brains were blown out the back of his head and neither you nor McAdams nor any of the remaining remnants of your Amen chorus can deal with it.
Fact is, you are at a disadvantage. It's so much easier to prove the truth, than to defend a lie.

Still waiting for your 7.65 Mauser proof...
 
Baloney. O'Connor did not "change" his testimony.

Oh right...

Paul O'Connor said there was no brain, but clarified that to mean virtually no brain -- he admits to there being "about a handful of macerated brain matter still in the cranium. "
.

So he didn't change it... except for the change he made?


So how about you tell us which of your witnesses is telling the truth about the amount of brain matter that was left. The guy who thought there was enough brain matter to try and save JFKs life and to identify which tissues had been displaced where, or the guy who thought there was only a handful of macerated tissue?

You see Robert, this continues to be an excellent illustration of why witness testemony is flawed. You claim there is no conflict. Not true. You want to believe, and maybe even convinced yourself that there is a single correlation: That they describe your undefined "blow out" to the back of the head. But even if that were true (which it's not as anybody reading Clarks full testemony can see) they still contradict each other. They still disagree on the amout of brain matter in JFKs head and the extent of damage. Your continued claims there is no contradiction just doesn't wash. One aspect you think they agree on does not excuse the contradictions.
 
So,nether TomTom nor Jay can respond to Dr.Kemp Clark's WC statement. No surprise.
Nor has either offered a single medical witness that is consistent with the Ryberg Drawing. Not a surprise.

The crickets are still chirping. Checkmate.

Why do you write stuff that has been disproven months ago?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8221707&postcount=6190

I listed quite a few names from your list of experts that didn't belong. Most of those gave testimony (or statements) fully consistent with the Ryberg drawing.

The above link shows several of those, along with the links to the original posts on each. You ignored most of that information entirely, or baloney'ed it.

Hank
 
Still waiting for your 7.65 Mauser proof...

Funny that, I am still waiting for any peer review article from a recognised journal in the field of photo-analysis in which Jack White's work was positively reviewed as Robert states here:

That's all irrelevant to his findings which have been peer reviewed and mostly positively reviewed.

I get the feeling Robert claims some facts are not in dispute even as we dispute them...
 
All of what you quote from Cyril Wecht is hearsay and his opinion -- for example, "witnesses were asked to falsify affidavits" or "Documents are manipulated."

None of that would be admissible in court.

What would be admissible is Wecht's opinion concerning the wounds - as a board certified forensic pathologist, he is an expert in the field - and it was his opinion there was no evidence of a exit wound in the back of the head.


That is false and not what he said.

Actually, it is true and is what he said, as I quoted it several months ago in this very thread - citing a couple of different sources for that claim.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7870305&postcount=2312

Hank
 
Last edited:
Only one question at a time, please. One could hardly confuse the words "Made Italy,Cal 6.5 with Mauser 7.65.

Now you just have to show that anyone who described it as a Mauser actually handled the weapon and read that inscription.

The weapons do look a lot alike, and as Weitzman admitted in his testimony, he described it as a Mauser after only a glance at it.

The Alyea film shows Oswald's weapon is the one in the TSBD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94APWcGDMyY

The Allen photo shows Oswald's weapon is the one taken from the TSBD.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/day_clip.gif

In response, you have a 50-year-old *disavowed* statement.

Hank
 
I get the feeling Robert claims some facts are not in dispute even as we dispute them...

That's because he considers "Baloney" to be an adequate response to a challenge. As I wrote earlier, he's in a huge pit of denial, but apparently not interested in crawling out. And as others have written, Robert may not be interested at all in debating for real.
 
Funny that, I am still waiting for any peer review article from a recognised journal in the field of photo-analysis in which Jack White's work was positively reviewed as Robert states here:

That's all irrelevant to his findings which have been peer reviewed and mostly positively reviewed.
...

You're misunderstanding Robert, I think.

Remember he, and Jack White, are conspiracy theorists. They don't need experts to tell them anything. They distrust experts because they all work for the government.

Thus, when he says they have been 'positively-reviewed' and 'peer-reviewed', all he really means is that other conspiracy theorists without any background in photographic analysis (like himself) believe Jack White (a conspiracy theorist without any background in photographic analysis) and accept his findings.

Ergo: "...his findings ... have been peer reviewed and mostly positively reviewed".

True - if you define White's peers as those who believe conspiracy theories.

But it is sad that Robert thinks that just because people without any qualifications accept some of the nonsense Jack White wrote, that White's claims therefore have any legitimacy.

Hank
 
They distrust experts because they all work for the government.

That's correct; this is one of the central tenets of conspiracism. On any question where expertise applies, the conspiracist tries to shift the debate from the validity of the exposed knowledge to the trustworthiness of the proponent. An expert may be highly informed and well experienced, but the conspiracist will dismiss his evidence because it is allegedly tainted by working for the wrong people, and will insinuate that the expert is simply lying.

Similarly the conspiracist's expertise is trustworthy because it is untainted by the Powers That Be, even though the expertise itself is really only layman's supposition. This is done because one's ability to show proper understanding is generally not debatable once he has submitted to a test of it; you either know your stuff or you don't. But one's socio-political allegiance, however, can be endlessly haggled over, on no better evidence than speculation.

True - if you define White's peers as those who believe conspiracy theories.

Indeed, which is why Robert declines to name the "peers" that have reviewed White's work. We know full well that White's true peers are simply other ignorant amateurs. But he wants to equivocate "peer" to mean those who are provably skilled and qualified in the field. Despite his earlier protests that doing so would constitute a fallacious appeal to authority, he is still trying to paint Jack White as an expert in photographic analysis.

We already went through this. Robert doesn't think any of his critics are qualified or experienced, so he writes them off as "self-proclaimed experts." But yet he was completely unable to discuss any subject regarding photographic interpretation himself. He doesn't have the capacity to judge who is an expert and who is not. Therefore charlatans like Jack White could laugh all the way to the bank, safe in the knowledge that their victims would lack the technical knowledge to expose them, and that he could spin any real criticism into a political argument.

But it is sad that Robert thinks that just because people without any qualifications accept some of the nonsense Jack White wrote, that White's claims therefore have any legitimacy.

Jack White's fanboy phenomenon was indeed amusing. No matter how many times his ignorance was exposed, no matter how many times he was caught blatantly lying, there were still plenty of people willing to pat him on the shoulder and tell him it was okay, the Big Bad Government is just picking on him.

Most conspiracy theorists who rely on photographic interpretation fall into the same question-begging error. They assume they already know all they'd need to know about photography, so when something happens in an image that they don't understand (or think they do, but don't), then their answer is always that it "must" be due to some tampering or fabrication. They never accept the answer that they don't see what they expect to see because their expectations are wrong. That is, they beg the question of their own competence and experience. In fact they beg it so egregiously that the question of validating their expectations never arises!

Hence gullible folk like Robert try to tell us that the strength of White's claims is "in the evidence itself," and not in White's alleged expertise. So they tell us that attacking White's expertise is a red herring -- an appeal to authority. That fails for two reasons. As I wrote at length earlier, it fails first because White absolutely believed himself to be an expert, and upon the basis of that expertise to have found things wrong with the photos. That is, White had no problem claiming his prodigious skill as a photo interpreter was the basis on which the evidence rested.

Second, it fails because White is right about how his expertise affects the strength of his claim. According to Robert, the evidence we should be paying attention to are the so-called "anomalies" in the backyard photos. But they're only "anomalies" because White says they are. What is an "anomaly?" It's the departure of an observation from its expected condition. What one expects from a true photograph depends largely on what training and experience one has had in the aspects of photography that pertain to the expectation. It's possible (nay, likely) for one's expectations to be in error if one is not properly trained and experienced.

But Robert would have us believe that these "anomalies" stand on their own, alone, irrespective of the knowledge and skill of those who are pointing them out. Robert wants the world to believe they exist completely independently of anyone's opinion, and that they are obviously self-evident. Like every other deluded person in the world, Robert cannot tell us why something should be the way he says it should be. I can speak at length about what I expect to see in true photographs. Robert just wants us to believe his claims are self-evident. That's consummate begging of the question.

No, White tells us these are "anomalies" because they violate his expectations. And he further tells us his expectations are valid and pertinent because he is an expert in photography and in the mathematical and physical laws that govern how objects appear in photographs. Except that he demonstrates all the time that he is no such person. Hence we can go on to show that what he calls "anomalies" are really just things about true photographs that Jack White doesn't understand because he has never been properly trained, tested, or experienced.
 
Actually, it is true and is what he said, as I quoted it several months ago in this very thread - citing a couple of different sources for that claim.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7870305&postcount=2312

Hank

You are still incorrect. Here is what he said,
"yes, with reasonable medical certainty I would have to say that the evidence is not there.I have already said it is a remote possibility and I certainly cannot equate that with reasonable medical certainty."

Thus, he believed at the time the the evidence was not there but he still admits to the possibility but with no medical certainty -- no reasonable medical certainty. So, he says it's possible . You are mis-quoting and mis-interpreting.
 
You are still incorrect. Here is what he said,
"yes, with reasonable medical certainty I would have to say that the evidence is not there.I have already said it is a remote possibility and I certainly cannot equate that with reasonable medical certainty."

Thus, he believed at the time the the evidence was not there but he still admits to the possibility but with no medical certainty -- no reasonable medical certainty. So, he says it's possible . You are mis-quoting and mis-interpreting.

Welets take a look again:
Mr. PURDY. Dr. Wecht, does the present state of available evidence permit the conclusion that to a reasonable degree of medical certainty there was not a shot from the side which struck the President?
Dr. WECHT. Yes, with reasonable medical certainty I would have to say that the evidence is not there.I have already said it is a remote possibility and I certainly cannot equate that with reasonable medical certainty.

So the thing that Wecht did not believe was there was evidence for a shot from the side (for example, from the Grassy knoll).

He states that being shot from the side is a remote possibility for which there is no evidence and no certainty.

Do you happen to have any evidence to contradict Wacht other than claiming others have misrepresented the statement when they have done no such thing? A remote possiblity for which there is no evidence pretty much sums up the post you are quoting.
 
Then why haven't you? All you have presented is some mildly ambiguous witness testimony - much of it many years after the fact, and thus tainted by the simple fact that the human brain has no error checking or correction on memories - that you have taken away from the context of the physical evidence. Care to debate that physical evidence, Robert? Are you ever going to address JayUtah's points concerning Jack White's expertise in photographic analysis, or lack thereof?

That's all water under the bridge. Jack White's findings have nothing whatsoever to do with the conspiracy to kill kennedy. They do have something to do with the frame-up of a Patsy in the Court of Public Opinion. But the medical witnesses that prove a shot from the front -- that's what I challenge naysayers to focus on -- proof that the assassination was indeed a conspiracy as proved by the testimony of 40 plus medical witnesses. .
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom