Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[Myriad]

I agree. What's the game?

Am I correct in assuming there is an underlying track that denies spirituality wholesale?

I don't know what you mean by a "track," but there are members here who deny the objective truth of spiritual narratives wholesale. On the other hand, spirituality as a type of human behavior and as a quality of subjective experience are readily apparent phenomena, so few deny those. Feeling the presence of God, and God actually being present, are two different things; the latter is a hypothesis for explaining the former, but it is not the only one and probably not the most parsimonious one.

I regard spirituality, and in particularly mysticism (within which the practices of Scientology fit quite comfortably once the terminology is translated), as frameworks for attempting to cause changes in one's own consciousness in accordance with will. (Such changes are, by John Michael Greer's unconventional definition, what magic is.) A common problem with many such systems (especially in the west) -- definitely including Scientology -- is failing to understand the nature and inherent limits thereof, and thus persistently attempting to apply the same methods to cause changes in something other than conscious experience. The result is constant and repeated blundering into the walls of reality. The Scientology promise of mastery over MEST is, objectively, as false and delusional as a Latin language professor promising to teach students to cast all the spells in Harry Potter.

The other problem with mysticism, that Scientology shares, is that even within its own domain -- such as, gaining control over basic aspects of one's own behavior -- success is limited. If any system including Scientology could achieve even a crappy 20% long-term success rate in smoking cessation or weight loss, the medical community would be referring patients there in droves, and the government, driven by its spiraling Medicare budget, would be finding or making loopholes left and right to help it happen. Forget mastering time and matter or the mystic secrets of ancient Egypt, can you master your own hand enough to keep it from putting cigarettes or donuts in your mouth? It's harder than it looks, and much harder than it should be if any of those systems had the advantages (over, say, normal human muddling through life, gaining experience along the way) they claim to have. Small wonder that spiritual and mystical systems spawn narratives of remarkably persistent adversaries (Satanic temptation, demons, evil spirits, engrams, Thetans, matrix agents, take your pick) that can be relied on to get in your way no matter what level of mastery you've supposedly reached.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

Your first mistake is thinking that there is actually a state of mind known as "clear." Hubbard made it up, and made it the cornerstone of his early teachings. Once It was, ahem, clear that there was no such state as clear, he upped the ante (OT levels) to keep the charade going.

Why do you think Scientology is so anti-psychiatry? There are mountains of evidence that psychiatry helps you, much more than some anecdotal evidence of auditing. Hubbard knew this early on, and started his anti-psychiatry stance. Why in the world would you want to audit when there is a much better process known as psychiatry? Because psychiatrists are evil. More nonsense.

 

[Justinian2]

I don't know what you mean by a "track," but there are members here who deny the objective truth of spiritual narratives wholesale. On the other hand, spirituality as a type of human behavior and as a quality of subjective experience are readily apparent phenomena, so few deny those. Feeling the presence of God, and God actually being present, are two different things; the latter is a hypothesis for explaining the former, but it is not the only one and probably not the most parsimonious one.

I regard spirituality, and in particularly mysticism (within which the practices of Scientology fit quite comfortably once the terminology is translated), as frameworks for attempting to cause changes in one's own consciousness in accordance with will. (Such changes are, by John Michael Greer's unconventional definition, what magic is.) A common problem with many such systems (especially in the west) -- definitely including Scientology -- is failing to understand the nature and inherent limits thereof, and thus persistently attempting to apply the same methods to cause changes in something other than conscious experience. The result is constant and repeated blundering into the walls of reality. The Scientology promise of mastery over MEST is, objectively, as false and delusional as a Latin language professor promising to teach students to cast all the spells in Harry Potter.

The other problem with mysticism, that Scientology shares, is that even within its own domain -- such as, gaining control over basic aspects of one's own behavior -- success is limited. If any system including Scientology could achieve even a crappy 20% long-term success rate in smoking cessation or weight loss, the medical community would be referring patients there in droves, and the government, driven by its spiraling Medicare budget, would be finding or making loopholes left and right to help it happen. Forget mastering time and matter or the mystic secrets of ancient Egypt, can you master your own hand enough to keep it from putting cigarettes or donuts in your mouth? It's harder than it looks, and much harder than it should be if any of those systems had the advantages (over, say, normal human muddling through life, gaining experience along the way) they claim to have. Small wonder that spiritual and mystical systems spawn narratives of remarkably persistent adversaries (Satanic temptation, demons, evil spirits, engrams, Thetans, matrix agents, take your pick) that can be relied on to get in your way no matter what level of mastery you've supposedly reached.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Auditing helps one alleviate the emotional impact of various disappointments that give a person the excuse to smoke. Auditing also gives on the knowledge of the symptoms a person has as we withdraws from smoking so that he can better prepare for and eliminate them when they happen. Ethics is necessary to quit the first three days. Vitamins and something to eliminate constipation are necessary and need to be taken ahead of the cessation.

I put together a program to help myself quit twenty years ago and it worked. However, I realize tens of millions have quit without using Scientology. The first stage of clear means that you are cause over MEST (matter, energy, space and time) for the first dynamic which includes your body.

Cessation of smoking in no way indicates whether or not a person is clear, but it could be a symptom of how clear you are. When a person is very high on the tone scale, it is a good sign that the person is clear or approaching clear on the first dynamic. He, however, could still be the effect of his many demons like logical fallacies, stupid rules, stupid habits, inappropriate feelings, etc.

The trouble with stopping the smoking habit for a Scientologist is that he feels impervious to things like cancer, and thus he is not as motivated as he might ordinarily be. I didn't quit because I feared cancer. I quit because I wanted to be cause over my body. I didn't want a chemical to control my body. I wanted to be control over MEST with regard to my body. That's why I quit twenty years ago.

 

[Justinian2]

At OTVIII, a person is starting to learn how to be cause over MEST for the other dynamics.

Actually, everyone is able to effect the other dynamics. Even a jerk (Holms) can negatively effect the other dynamics.

Being able to surgically effect the other dynamics for the better requires constant learning and practice.

I am not complete cause over all MEST. It would be easier if I was a billionaire, but that misses the point too.

I don't want to be complete cause over all MEST because then I wouldn't have a game to play. A man needs some challenges. Maybe this thought is my Achilles heel. Maybe I don't want to responsible for everybody. Perhaps others also don't want me to be responsible for them.

 

[shuttlt]

Auditing helps one alleviate the emotional impact of various disappointments that give a person the excuse to smoke. Auditing also gives on the knowledge of the symptoms a person has as we withdraws from smoking so that he can better prepare for and eliminate them when they happen. Ethics is necessary to quit the first three days. Vitamins and something to eliminate constipation are necessary and need to be taken ahead of the cessation.

I put together a program to help myself quit twenty years ago and it worked. However, I realize tens of millions have quit without using Scientology. The first stage of clear means that you are cause over MEST (matter, energy, space and time) for the first dynamic which includes your body.

Cessation of smoking in no way indicates whether or not a person is clear, but it could be a symptom of how clear you are. When a person is very high on the tone scale, it is a good sign that the person is clear or approaching clear on the first dynamic. He, however, could still be the effect of his many demons like logical fallacies, stupid rules, stupid habits, inappropriate feelings, etc.

The trouble with stopping the smoking habit for a Scientologist is that he feels impervious to things like cancer, and thus he is not as motivated as he might ordinarily be. I didn't quit because I feared cancer. I quit because I wanted to be cause over my body. I didn't want a chemical to control my body. I wanted to be control over MEST with regard to my body. That's why I quit twenty years ago.

Can Scientologists not get cancer? Presumably if they had greatly reduced rates to what one would expect this would be good evidence that something is going on. Upon what evidence do (some?) Scientologists believe they are immune to cancer?

 

[hgc]

Auditing helps one alleviate the emotional impact of various disappointments that give a person the excuse to smoke. ...

Hubbard smoked. And he also said that not smoking causes cancer. Aren't you concerned about getting cancer? Don't you trust in what Hubbard said?

 

[Justinian2]

Can Scientologists not get cancer? Presumably if they had greatly reduced rates to what one would expect this would be good evidence that something is going on. Upon what evidence do (some?) Scientologists believe they are immune to cancer?

I just said Scientologists believed they were immune to cancer, I didn't say we were. However, when I was a young, thin Scientologist who smoked in moderation, I had no apparent problems from smoking. We wouldn't smoke while in the academy, exercised and kept thin, so there were moderating effects. Because we believed that Scientology would cure all, we weren't worried and our BP was low. Living precariously had its perks.

Youth + Scientology + No SPs = a feeling we would live forever.

Now I know I will eventually die. Or at least I will eventually "Drop this body" to disgust some of you with a Scientology expression. While more than half the time I feel like 25 even though I'm 65, the percentage of time I feel 25 is decreasing slowly with each passing year. I'm fighting the aging process. When I'm too old to enjoy life, I hope I'll find a way to grease the trip to the next life. Till then, I'm still enjoying my Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue.

 

[Myriad]

Auditing helps one alleviate the emotional impact of various disappointments that give a person the excuse to smoke. Auditing also gives on the knowledge of the symptoms a person has as we withdraws from smoking so that he can better prepare for and eliminate them when they happen. Ethics is necessary to quit the first three days. Vitamins and something to eliminate constipation are necessary and need to be taken ahead of the cessation.

I put together a program to help myself quit twenty years ago and it worked. However, I realize tens of millions have quit without using Scientology. The first stage of clear means that you are cause over MEST (matter, energy, space and time) for the first dynamic which includes your body.

Cessation of smoking in no way indicates whether or not a person is clear, but it could be a symptom of how clear you are. When a person is very high on the tone scale, it is a good sign that the person is clear or approaching clear on the first dynamic. He, however, could still be the effect of his many demons like logical fallacies, stupid rules, stupid habits, inappropriate feelings, etc.

The trouble with stopping the smoking habit for a Scientologist is that he feels impervious to things like cancer, and thus he is not as motivated as he might ordinarily be. I didn't quit because I feared cancer. I quit because I wanted to be cause over my body. I didn't want a chemical to control my body. I wanted to be control over MEST with regard to my body. That's why I quit twenty years ago.

This is exactly what I meant. Every mystical system has a wealth of narrative about how it should work ("being the cause over MEST in the dynamic that includes your body"), and excuses ("many demons") for why it usually doesn't, and an actual long-term success rate in the low single digit percent.

One of the demons you didn't list is nicotine, which has well-known (though not always completely understood) effects on the physical brain that (all evidence shows) is the necessary substrate for the mind and consciousness to function. That's why nicotine therapy does somewhat improve the cessation success rate. Unjustified disregard for physical cause and effect is another pitfall of many mystical systems. If a problem is in your physical brain, your mind and consciousness can't fix it, any more than your computer game characters' magic items can fix your computer if it breaks down.

Congratulations for quitting, though. It can be done. (My wife, after we met but before we were married, quit smoking, with no visible fuss or drama -- or vitamins, or drugs -- whatsoever. Her reason was that she was tired of having to schedule her activities around "the next cigarette.") And you've done yourself a great service.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[shuttlt]

I just said Scientologists believed they were immune to cancer, I didn't say we were. However, when I was a young, thin Scientologist who smoked in moderation, I had no apparent problems from smoking. We wouldn't smoke while in the academy, exercised and kept thin, so there were moderating effects. Because we believed that Scientology would cure all, we weren't worried and our BP was low. Living precariously had its perks.

Why would Scientologists believe Scientology would cure cancer?

 

[pakeha]

How many hours do you reckon you've spent being audited over the years?

What do you think of the electrically induced endorphine response?
Could it account for the addictive nature of Scientology you mentioned here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8480854#post8480854

...There is no sensation. ...Sorry, but an E meter does not provide any sensation by itself. But the question was sarcasm, was it not?

It wasn't.
http://www.lermanet.com/shock1.htm
I left out the link by accident!

You were the one who mentioned the addictive nature of Scientology.
That surprised me and so I wanted to learn more.

Really? You're referring to the Xenu story?

Here's ol' L Ron himself telling it:

I wonder why Scientologists deny the Xenu story.
Is there any question of that voice in the clip being actually Ron L. Hubbard?

At OTVIII, a person is starting to learn how to be cause over MEST for the other dynamics. ...

Are you OTVIII?

... Upon what evidence do (some?) Scientologists believe they are immune to cancer?

I'd like to know about this, too.

 

[Justinian2]

It wasn't.
http://www.lermanet.com/shock1.htm
I left out the link by accident!

You were the one who mentioned the addictive nature of Scientology.
That surprised me and so I wanted to learn more.

The Emeter gives no electrical sensation. I didn't become a Scientologist or an electrical engineer because I enjoyed electrical shocks.

I wonder why Scientologists deny the Xenu story.
Is there any question of that voice in the clip being actually Ron L. Hubbard?

I have told you about the Xenu story without ruining it for anyone. I also don't tell people about how books and movies end.

Are you OTVIII?

Yes.

I'd like to know about this, too.

OTVIII is the most powerful level by far. There are a dozen parts to it. Some are very long. The customized set-ups for the levels are great too. They are designed by the CS (The Case Supervisor).

 

[Justinian2]

Why would Scientologists believe Scientology would cure cancer?

The immune system works better with happy people than with depressed people. My sister in law's Sanford educated oncologist (a non Scientologist) told us her depression could have predisposed her to the Pancreatic cancer which killed her.

 

[pakeha]

The Emeter gives no electrical sensation. I didn't become a Scientologist or an electrical engineer because I enjoyed electrical shocks.

No one said you did.
The link I gave discussed the release of endorfins.

I have told you about the Xenu story without ruining it for anyone. I also don't tell people about how books and movies end.

Ruining it?
What do you mean?
What do movies have to do with Xenu?

OTVIII is the most powerful level by far. There are a dozen parts to it. Some are very long. The customized set-ups for the levels are great too. They are designed by the CS (The Case Supervisor).

Thanks for the information!

The immune system works better with happy people than with depressed people. My sister in law's Sanford educated oncologist (a non Scientologist) told us her depression could have predisposed her to the Pancreatic cancer which killed her.

Could have?
Did this physician commit himself in writing to that medical assessment?
I didn't realise pancreatic cancer had emotional causes.

 

[AdMan]

OTVIII is the most powerful level by far.

So, being an OTVIII, what kind of special "powers" do you have, that we OT0s don't?

 

[Halfcentaur]

To sum up like a ten year old: I'm not brainwashed, you're double brainwashed!

You can keep claiming everyone else is brainwashed until you're blue in the face, but at the end of the day you're the one defending a belief system that discourages criticism and skeptical inquiry of the belief system itself. The systems you're pretending are worse don't do that.

 

[Halfcentaur]

I have no current relationship with Scientology.

Then what was your relationship with it?

 

[Halfcentaur]

We wouldn't smoke while in the academy, exercised and kept thin, so there were moderating effects.

Is English your first language?

 

[shuttlt]

The immune system works better with happy people than with depressed people. My sister in law's Sanford educated oncologist (a non Scientologist) told us her depression could have predisposed her to the Pancreatic cancer which killed her.

Sure, but it's kind of a leap to go from that to "therefore I can smoke all I like and I won't get cancer". I'm just puzzled that anybody would think that if they are happy they won't get cancer. There is a missing step in the reasoning here, surely?

 

[pakeha]

...The Scientology promise of mastery over MEST is, objectively, as false and delusional as a Latin language professor promising to teach students to cast all the spells in Harry Potter.

The other problem with mysticism, that Scientology shares, is that even within its own domain -- such as, gaining control over basic aspects of one's own behavior -- success is limited. If any system including Scientology could achieve even a crappy 20% long-term success rate in smoking cessation or weight loss, the medical community would be referring patients there in droves, and the government, driven by its spiraling Medicare budget, would be finding or making loopholes left and right to help it happen..../QUOTE]

I see what you mean, Myriad.
While I find the Study Technique to be interesting, I question whether it has been shown to be other than a covert method to ease people and especially children into an acceptance of Scientology's most particular vocabulary.

I'm learning a lot from this thread, thanks to all the posts from so many viewpoints.

 

[marplots]

Then what was your relationship with it?

I am interested in beliefs in general -- how we get them, what need they meet, how this is leveraged, what institutions it spawns... lots of questions like that. This puts Scientology in a category with a lot of other ideas, everything from nationalism to faith in medicine. Scientology is interesting because it is so polarizing. I see little effort by either side to bridge the gap or surrender an inch.

How do we use our beliefs to construct a coherent worldview and what's the outcome when there are mismatches?

Using Scientology as an example, how does it continue to exist? I don't think the answer will be as simple as claiming the whole thing is a sham and a con. But even if it is, why does it endure? It seems to be at least as robust as belief in psychics. I expect it meets some need, has some value to its members. Will it go the way of Transcendental Meditation or will it blossom, like the Latter Day Saints?

Scientology is fascinating.