Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[Christian Klippel]

This is starting to get disturbing enturbulating.

There, fixed it for ya

Greetings,

Chris

 

[shuttlt]

I agree. What's the game?

Am I correct in assuming there is an underlying track that denies spirituality wholesale?

Spirituality as in chanting, lighting candles, getting rid of Thetans, whatever... that somehow links you to some cosmic oneness/unalterable Truth/divine creator/universal consciousness/secret knowledge/past lives/magic powers that actually really actually exists. Yes, I think there is a track here that denies it, but I don't think there is anything underlying about it.

Spirituality as in something that some people find pleasant some of the time, sure, why not?

 

[shuttlt]

I find it hard to address issues that arise from sources outside of the church. There seems to be a lot of animosity and it is difficult to filter through that. I am somewhat in the position of a Christian discussing the Bible with people who haven't actually read the Bible, but only some commentary on it.

Whether this is relevant or not depends very much on what is being discussed. If, taking the Christian example, I wanted to discuss the authorship of the gospels,it would probably help if I'd at least skimmed them. If I wanted to talk about why a Christian believes in Cristianity, when a Muslim has just as much reason for believing in Islam, say, then I don't think my biblical knowledge is very important.

Certainly not with everyone here, but I can't tell who is who. And, to make it plain, I am no expert on Scientology either. I'm like the Christian who isn't well versed in the Bible -- at least not well enough to qualify as an apologist.

As far as I'm concerned the teachings of Scientology are almost certainly nonsense and I'm not desperately interested in having them justified for their own sake. But that's just my view. As with all believers, I'm interested in why you believe in it. If you don't go for the whole Xenu thing, fine.

Still, even with these limitations, there are claims we can look at and evaluate. For example, the title of this thread is "Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father" -- to me that is misleading. It has two meanings. The one is that the pair abandoned the institution, which is apparently so. But the other is that they abandoned the belief system, something I do not know and doubt highly. I think this is often the case: the word scientology meant to mean the organization instead of the practice. And I think it causes some confusion.

I'm not very interested in these people, I'm afraid.

 

[marplots]

Spirituality as in chanting, lighting candles, getting rid of Thetans, whatever... that somehow links you to some cosmic oneness/unalterable Truth/divine creator/universal consciousness/secret knowledge/past lives/magic powers that actually really actually exists. Yes, I think there is a track here that denies it, but I don't think there is anything underlying about it.

Spirituality as in something that some people find pleasant some of the time, sure, why not?

You've put your finger on the disconnect. No practice could hope to make inroads when the matter of concern is already ruled out of court.

Here is what L. Ron Hubbard had to say about it:

“No culture in the history of the world, save the thoroughly depraved and expiring ones, has failed to affirm the existence of a Supreme Being. It is an empirical observation that men without a strong and lasting faith in a Supreme Being are less capable, less ethical and less valuable to themselves and society....A man without an abiding faith is, by observation alone, more of a thing than a man.”

 

[Halfcentaur]

There, fixed it for ya

Greetings,

Chris

Now I've learned something

 

[Halfcentaur]

I agree. What's the game?

Am I correct in assuming there is an underlying track that denies spirituality wholesale?

What is your relation to Scientology?

 

[hgc]

Here is what L. Ron Hubbard had to say about it:

So, Hubbard was big on making ignorant, unfounded claims. We already knew that.

 

[marplots]

What is your relation to Scientology?

I have no current relationship with Scientology.

 

[marplots]

So, Hubbard was big on making ignorant, unfounded claims. We already knew that.

He did use the word empirical.

 

[devnull]

He did use the word empirical.

well, that makes all the difference.

 

[Christian Klippel]

well, that makes all the difference.

Given the fact that one of scientology's cornerstones is to redefine words, one can assume that "empirical" here means "completely made up"

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Justinian2]

Really? A friend has one, and resales of time in the same complex consistantly are worth much more than he paid a few years ago....

Do you often make snap pronouncements and expect them to be taken as gospel?

*The Florida Attorney General's office has shut down hundreds of timeshare resale scams in their state that charged people over $1000 to sell their timeshare and then did nothing.

*The Florida Attorney General's office could not recommend a company that could resell a timeshare. The lady I asked said she would be rich if she could.

* I asked a Florida timeshare lawyer if he could recommend someone that could sell the timeshare. He said no he couldn't.

* I've seen Forty thousand dollar timeshares sell on eBay for a few hundred dollars.

HOWEVER, they make fantastic vacation destinations for people with families. They are much better than hotels. A woman with four kids that just rented a unit from me said all her family hugged and kissed her for renting the timeshare for them.

As I stated, I am dealing with the timeshares of my deceased sister in law.

 

[devnull]

seriously, 40k for a timeshare? was it 52 weeks a year of 5 star?

So, your basic issue is that some people cannot judge the value of something?

 

[Justinian2]

lol

I see a couple of you replied to my post while I was editing it and before my final post. OK, I deserved that. My post was kind of funky, which is why I replaced it with a Ben Franklin quote before I saw the resposnses to it.

The point I was trying to make was that many of you say that Scientologists were brainwashed by their cult. The irony is that many Scientologists became Scientologists because the world is already brainwashed and needs to have the effects of their brainwashing cleaned from their minds.

Dianetics is loaded with examples of how normal people become brainwashed or under the influence of hypnotic-like suggestions.

I agree with Hubbard's estimate that only about 20 percent of a person's thinking is free of thoughts that are 'stressfull, convoluted, occluded, false, agitated, logical fallacies, or borrowed dogma).

The 60 percent of Americans that used to be in our workforce used to be more clear, but with the current stresses on their jobs, employment and finances they are sliding down the slope towards la-la land or going postal.

To sum up: You think we are brainwashed by society and Scientologists think that most of society is brainwashed.

To sum up like a ten year old: I'm not brainwashed, you're double brainwashed!

 

[Justinian2]

seriously, 40k for a timeshare? was it 52 weeks a year of 5 star?

So, your basic issue is that some people cannot judge the value of something?

My now deceased sister in law bought two prime time four bedroom units at Westgate in Orlando Florida. The yearly one cost $40,000. The bi yearly one cost $20,000. They can each be split into two units that can each sleep eight people and can be traded for anytime and any other unit in the world.

The kicker is that the timeshare fees are $1150 per year.

Here's a picture/drawing of the house being built by the owner of Westgate: http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4994957426623239&id=e037cfc9ade99eb4fad36f2542165ac7

No, my basic issue is that the people that sell timeshares sell the future value of the timeshare as increasing, but do nothing to help the resale value. The sales pitch is a fraud and the attorney General's office aids and abets the escape of the timeshare billionaires.

 

[devnull]

My now deceased sister in law bought two prime time four bedroom units at Westgate in Orlando Florida. The yearly one cost $40,000. The bi yearly one cost $20,000. They can each be split into two units that can each sleep eight people and can be traded for anytime and any other unit in the world.

The kicker is that the timeshare fees are $1150 per year.

Here's a picture/drawing of the house being built by the owner of Westgate: http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4994957426623239&id=e037cfc9ade99eb4fad36f2542165ac7

So, she made a bad investment? It happens.

Im sure she was made aware of the fees before she signed up. She should have thought it through.

 

[Justinian2]

So, she made a bad investment? It happens.

Im sure she was made aware of the fees before she signed up. She should have thought it through.

No, my basic issue is that the people that sell timeshares sell the future value of the timeshare as increasing, but do nothing to help the resale value. The sales pitch is a fraud and the attorney General's office aids and abets the escape of the timeshare billionaires.

As a person gets richer and richer it becomes easier to gain wealth. When you can afford to pay a full time legal staff, you can get away with anything.

 

[shuttlt]

You've put your finger on the disconnect. No practice could hope to make inroads when the matter of concern is already ruled out of court.

Well, this is progress then. At least we are clear that you are making a claim about there actually being some kind of meta-reality/God/spirit world/what ever rather than just saying that some Scientology practice is found to be helpful by some people and not making any claims beyond that. I wouldn't say that it's ruled out. I don't rule it out, I just lack belief in it. My main question would be why you feel Scientology has got it right and all the other religions/paths to enlightenment are, in one way or another less right. It can't surely just be that Scientology happens to be what you have stumbled upon and you dismiss the experiences of other people following other religions/spiritual paths?

Here is what L. Ron Hubbard had to say about it:

“No culture in the history of the world, save the thoroughly depraved and expiring ones, has failed to affirm the existence of a Supreme Being. It is an empirical observation that men without a strong and lasting faith in a Supreme Being are less capable, less ethical and less valuable to themselves and society....A man without an abiding faith is, by observation alone, more of a thing than a man.”

I'm pretty sure there have been threads on this very topic. We could sidetrack things for a long time unpicking this.

 

[hgc]

He did use the word empirical.

I hope to Xenu that you're kidding there. If so, funny stuff.

Let me try: It is an empirical observation that Goobers and Raisinettes cause cancer of the big toe.

I said empirical, so you can quote me at will.

 

[Krikkiter]

No, my basic issue is that the people that sell timeshares sell the future value of the timeshare as increasing, but do nothing to help the resale value. The sales pitch is a fraud and the attorney General's office aids and abets the escape of the timeshare billionaires.

As a person gets richer and richer it becomes easier to gain wealth. When you can afford to pay a full time legal staff, you can get away with anything.

Life's a bitch.

My ex-girlfriend and and I were persuaded to go to a time share sales pitch evening with the enticement of a free holiday/appliance (ha ha ha!). We both knew it was going to be a pretty hard sell but she wanted the holiday so we went. And yes the pitch was ridiculously pressuring. But we didn't buy into it because it was obvious we couldn't afford it regardless of what the sales team were trying to tell us. Jesus the lady even started getting angry with us when we said we couldn't do it. Pretty funny.

Life's a bitch.

We got a free holiday.

Now back to useless electronic gadgets, implants and alien invasions... (these things also require an intense sales pitch).