Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[pakeha]

Yes. The Freezone uses the stuff that LRH used. We use the original stuff. ...

How many hours do you reckon you've spent being audited over the years?

What do you think of the electrically induced endorphine response?
Could it account for the addictive nature of Scientology you mentioned here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8480854#post8480854

...To avoid the Miscavige's Church of Scientology is one thing - although it can be good if you sufficient wealth to pay for enough auditing to release you from the addictive need for their church.

 

[The Dark Lord]

Education that states facts and gives sources is not brainwashing.

By sources, you mean LRon, the crappy sci-fi writer and proven liar who said the way to make money is to start a religion, right?

 

[The Dark Lord]

Now that we know what brainwashing is, lets discuss the second part of your feeble attempt to brainwash. While what you say is true, you convey the implication that Xenu is important to the viability of Scientology. In actuality Santa Claus is more important to Capitalistic ideas in that we not only support capitalism during the holidays, but we associate capitalism with the birth of Christ and we associate Santa with the big, benevolent billionaire/capitalist. Oh, yeah, we associate the unimportant worker with the elves.

The Xenu story is about brainwashing, tyrants, geneticide, atomic war, war and evil. It is run as merely as an inkblot to restimulate an area that needs auditing. Dianetics doesn't run narrative items. This is a break from the normal routine, but Scientology uses every method to remove or reduce areas of pain, confusion, unwanted emotion, unwanted sensation and brainwashing.

BS. LRon made this up and told it as if it were a real story. You plebes are supposed to believe it actually happened. Xenu is the reason body thetans are around and ruining everybody's lives. Yeah, I know, crazy. But it is your religion not mine.

 

[The Dark Lord]

The third part of your brainwashing it that Scientology costs six figures. It does not. I spent less than the cost of a new car in going to OTVIII. Scientology insights have lasted my whole life. During the same period, many new cars have worn out and gone to the junk yard.

Maybe you did. Now it is six figures. All of it completely wasted because Scientology is a bunch of nonsense a bad sci-fi writter turned conman just made up.

Fourthly, you're making Freezone Scientology = Miscavige Scientology = Hubbard Scientology. It seems that either you're very confused or you have a vested interested in brainwashing people against Scientology.

Not my problem that some of you people split from the "church" or that some other megalomaniac took the "church" over when the original megalomaniac died.

 

[hgc]

Have you ever worked on a military project?

TLA stands for Three Letter Acronym. The military makes Scientology seem acronym free. It takes me about three months to learn the acronyms on a new military project.

How about the language of psychiatry?

How about doctoral theses?

Are they cults? You bet they are. The military is the primary example of a cult. So are police forces. So is the medical community. Scientology is a cult also.

Freezone Scientology is NOT a cult. We don't talk or live together, for one thing. We revert to calling ARC breaks upsets when we leave Scientology training/auditing. Freezone Scientology is an anti cult. By definition, all of earth's societies are more of a cult than Freezone Scientology. Earth is a cult.

And the redefinition of language continues apace:

Cult? We're not a cult! Everything but us is a cult! The only way to un-cult is to Freezone! Culties!

 

[hgc]

...Emeters...

Galvanic skin response meter. Call it what it is -- you'll sound slightly less cultish.

 

[marplots]

Withhold judgment until after spending $300K? That's terrible advice. It's not an issue of honesty, but rather, of common sense.

I don't think you show up, pay $300K and all is revealed. Scientology is a step-wise learning experience. People are free to abandon it at any time. The fact that so many continue on argues they perceive a value.

Or, perhaps we can invoke some magical brain washing? How are we to rationalize the two ideas? 1) Scientology is bogus 2) Scientology is effective (at brain washing).

I think it is both a great insult to practitioners to paint them as stupid sheep and an insult to the hierarchy to characterize them as evil genius manipulators.

 

[The Dark Lord]

I don't think you show up, pay $300K and all is revealed. Scientology is a step-wise learning experience. People are free to abandon it at any time. The fact that so many continue on argues they perceive a value.

Or, perhaps we can invoke some magical brain washing? How are we to rationalize the two ideas? 1) Scientology is bogus 2) Scientology is effective (at brain washing).

I think it is both a great insult to practitioners to paint them as stupid sheep and an insult to the hierarchy to characterize them as evil genius manipulators.

A lot people are very easily manipulated. LRon realized that and cashed in big.

 

[marplots]

BS. LRon made this up and told it as if it were a real story. You plebes are supposed to believe it actually happened. Xenu is the reason body thetans are around and ruining everybody's lives. Yeah, I know, crazy. But it is your religion not mine.

The only place I have heard this story is from non-Scientology sources.

Here is a quote from www.scientology.org

"Scientology is not a dogmatic religion in which one is asked to accept anything on faith alone. On the contrary, one discovers for oneself that the principles of Scientology are true by applying its principles and observing or experiencing the results."

Also, more to the point:

"Like everything in Scientology, the full training line-up is built on a gradient approach, whether you are interested in becoming an auditor or helping others in other ways. You start with the basics and move into more and more advanced materials and courses."

Those who point to some aspect of Scientology they don't like sweep a great deal under the rug to highlight something they find objectionable.

It is as if you would tell someone interested in algebra, "Just wait. They have a quantity, the square root of negative one. That's strange enough as is, but it's even worse. When used to generate "complex numbers", this mysterious entity makes something that is neither larger nor smaller than another complex number. What's just as troubling is they have numbers you can't even write down -- they have to make up new symbols for them! Mathematics is bunk and you're wasting your time learning it."

Without the stepwise learning it takes to understand higher level material, it naturally sounds silly. While I cannot comment on advanced Scientology material, I expect that it does take some work to get to that point.

 

[marplots]

A lot people are very easily manipulated. LRon realized that and cashed in big.

Sure. That was the point, to help those who were being manipulated to become "clear" and escape the trap. Don't you find it interesting how easily we can judge other humans as "easily manipulated" -- from either perspective?

 

[hgc]

I don't think you show up, pay $300K and all is revealed. Scientology is a step-wise learning experience. People are free to abandon it at any time. The fact that so many continue on argues they perceive a value.

Yeah, but you said the honest thing to do would be to withhold judgment Xenu and OT3 until you get there. Regardless of whether you pay $300K up front or over time, you'd still be a goof to withhold judgment about Xenu and OT3 until you get there. The OT3 materials are available for all to see and hear, for free, in Hubbard's own handwriting and voice. And it's not hard to judge either. There's nothing dishonest about evaluating and judging it.

Or, perhaps we can invoke some magical brain washing? How are we to rationalize the two ideas? 1) Scientology is bogus 2) Scientology is effective (at brain washing).

I think it is both a great insult to practitioners to paint them as stupid sheep and an insult to the hierarchy to characterize them as evil genius manipulators.

Yes, Scientology is bogus, and yes, Scientology appears to be effective at brainwashing or otherwise convincing people to believe in bogus stuff.

Please don't be insulted. I wouldn't call Scientologists stupid just because they believe in bogus stuff. Lots of smart people believe in bogus stuff -- it's a natural feature. Hubbard was an evil bastard, and quite the genius in certain ways. I think this particular fact should be pointed out to Scientologists at every opportunity. They seem to put a lot of store in so much of what he said that is completely unverifiable and unfalsifiable (e.g., whole track) or demonstrably untrue (e.g., his personal history and education).

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

People continue to believe in Scientology for much the same reason that a person invested in Sylvia Browne continues to follow her. The more time and money you invest in something, the more important it becomes. It's a neverending pit, where you keep digging yourself deeper. If you realized early on like I did (only a few hundred bucks in), it's not too hard to walk away. But if you've invested thousands and 10 years of your life, it's extremely difficult to say "whoops, I messed up." It's much easier to try to justify your belief/stance.

Not to mention auditing lends itself to a person revealing their deepest, darkest secrets. We have all seen quotes from members who left the church and said these same secrets were used against them like blackmail to keep them in scientology.

 

[marplots]

Yeah, but you said the honest thing to do would be to withhold judgment Xenu and OT3 until you get there. Regardless of whether you pay $300K up front or over time, you'd still be a goof to withhold judgment about Xenu and OT3 until you get there. The OT3 materials are available for all to see and hear, for free, in Hubbard's own handwriting and voice. And it's not hard to judge either. There's nothing dishonest about evaluating and judging it.

I do not think I have the proper grounding yet to accept or reject higher level material. There is probably a good reason that such things are kept hidden until the proper time. Arguably, from what I've read here, it has caused some disquietude, amazement and befuddlement. These are not helpful things.

They seem to put a lot of store in so much of what he said that is completely unverifiable and unfalsifiable (e.g., whole track) or demonstrably untrue (e.g., his personal history and education).

Would it be rational to take what is verifiable as a basis for trusting that other things are worthwhile too? Verification, in this use, would be the results discovered in one's own application of the principles.

 

[The Dark Lord]

The only place I have heard this story is from non-Scientology sources.

Yeah, they know it is a crazy story. So, like I said, they don't tell anybody about unless they have been brainwashed enough to accept it. And been taken for a lot of money, of course.

Here is a quote from www.scientology.org

I don't really give a **** what their website says.

Also, more to the point:


Those who point to some aspect of Scientology they don't like sweep a great deal under the rug to highlight something they find objectionable.

It is as if you would tell someone interested in algebra, "Just wait. They have a quantity, the square root of negative one. That's strange enough as is, but it's even worse. When used to generate "complex numbers", this mysterious entity makes something that is neither larger nor smaller than another complex number. What's just as troubling is they have numbers you can't even write down -- they have to make up new symbols for them! Mathematics is bunk and you're wasting your time learning it."

Was math invented by a hack sci-fi writer who said that the way to make money is to start a religion? Do you have to give the church of math hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn the secrets of math?

Without the stepwise learning it takes to understand higher level material, it naturally sounds silly. While I cannot comment on advanced Scientology material, I expect that it does take some work to get to that point.

It sounds crazy because it is crazy. Obviously, the more brainwashed you are into accepting whatever the "church" tells you the less crazy it will sound.

 

[marplots]

Not to mention auditing lends itself to a person revealing their deepest, darkest secrets. We have all seen quotes from members who left the church and said these same secrets were used against them like blackmail to keep them in scientology.

Was this done to you?

 

[marplots]

I don't really give a **** what their website says.

And why would you? It's probably much better to just listen to what others have to say without risking the confusion that might arise from another point of view. Hearsay is, after all, a convenient and efficient way to be a skeptic.

 

[The Dark Lord]

And why would you? It's probably much better to just listen to what others have to say without risking the confusion that might arise from another point of view. Hearsay is, after all, a convenient and efficient way to be a skeptic.

Scientology is a scam. A money making operation. Obviously its website is not the best source of information.

 

[hgc]

I do not think I have the proper grounding yet to accept or reject higher level material. There is probably a good reason that such things are kept hidden until the proper time. Arguably, from what I've read here, it has caused some disquietude, amazement and befuddlement. These are not helpful things.

Amazement was my reaction. Not at the profundity of the material, but at its poor literary quality and its utter shallowness for something that is supposed to be Earth shattering information. Any sentient adult has the proper grounding to read it and judge for themselves.

Would it be rational to take what is verifiable as a basis for trusting that other things are worthwhile too? Verification, in this use, would be the results discovered in one's own application of the principles.

I'm glad you think you've gotten some value from the practice. But, I happen to care if my beliefs are true. Are you like that too?

 

[Myriad]

Was this done to you?

Yeah, because if it was done to someone else besides you, why should you care? Are you your brother's keeper? Everybody's different; some people get blackmailed and some don't. So if you're one of the lucky ones who don't, shut up and count your blessings!

Don't you get it yet? The police brainwash people so it's okay if Scientologists brainwash people by a perhaps lesser amount. Time-share condo sellers rip people off, so it's okay if Scientologists rip people off by perhaps a lesser amount. Governments are evil, so it's okay if Scientologists are maybe just a bit less evil. Skeptics sometimes bully people, so it's okay if Scientologists harass former members and break up their families. Some people tell made-up stories about Santa so it's perfectly okay to charge tens of thousands of dollars for made-up stories about Thetans. The military uses a lot of acronyms so it's okay for Scientology to use misleading terminology. Girls used to be forced to marry at age 12, so statutory rape is completely acceptable, and the real outrage is that the laws against it exist. If any other wrong besides Scientology exists in the world, it's unfair to call anything Scientology does wrong.

It's a very interesting system of practice. Its fundamental active principle appears to be shifting the blame. One becomes "clear" when all the blame in the world has been shifted away from oneself. Compare and contrast with the Catholic state of grace after confession, atonement, and forgiveness.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[AdMan]

BS. LRon made this up and told it as if it were a real story. You plebes are supposed to believe it actually happened. Xenu is the reason body thetans are around and ruining everybody's lives. Yeah, I know, crazy. But it is your religion not mine.

The only place I have heard this story is from non-Scientology sources.

Really? You're referring to the Xenu story?

Here's ol' L Ron himself telling it: