General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Belz...]

Now go and look up where the British were later forced to open fire on the inmates with live rounds to stop the orgy of killing, rape and looting which broke out after they initially took control of the camp.

I don't mean to put too much pressure on you, Chuck but do you think you could provide your evidence that anyone here defended Zisblatt, especially myself, please ? I'd like to know because it appears my memory of that is shaky and I would appreciate your help in this matter. Thanks in advance.

 

[Belz...]

What happened at Belsen was tragic but it cannot be called murder.

Because the victims were untermenschen ?

 

[tsig]

Good. You now concede that I was accurate in assuming SM's uncle was an Infantryman and that he rode around in a Bren carrier.

You will now provide me with a citation proving that the D-4 was the actual buldozer model used by the British at Belsen.

Would you like the horsepower and color scheme also? Maybe the number of treads in the tracks?

 

[Robrob]

Please provide quotes from SM's accounts supporting those claims. Specifically, 1. that he was a Royal Engineer,
2. that he was an Infantryman
3. that he rode around in a Bren carrier.

Here you go:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8474069&postcount=4726
"and was on a Bren carrier. If it has to be broken down to company/platoon,"
Company and platoon are Infantry sub units. Royal Engineers drive bulldozers.

In fact, SM didn't even say that his uncle was driving the bulldozer in question, just that he was on it, and helped move bodies.

Are you for real? How many seats did the bulldozers used by the British at Belsen have?

I am well aware soldiers ride around on the outside of tanks and other large fighting vehicles. But I have never seen anyone riding on the outside of a tiny bulldozer designed only for one operator.

Point me to pictures of soldiers riding around on the outside of those small bulldozers used at Belsen.

So this is what the CT are reduced to, hair splitting over how many Bren Carriers might accompany an Engineer unit? Parsing if a soldier would/could ride on the side of a bulldozer? And the CT wonder why no one believes them.

 

[balmoral]

Well, well, well. Mr. Charles Traynor, mein alter Kampfer. I haven't seen you since the rather sudden (and somewhat less than sad) demise of RODOH. Where's my Auschwitz report, Unterscharfuhrer? You did promise a timely written/video report on your expedition to A-B? I've been scouring the internet to find it... and nothing.... but Zisblatt.

Seriously, have you nothing but Zisblatt and bulldozers in Belsen. I had thought you were a serious researcher.

 

[Charles Traynor]

yes the denial delusionists still do not get they are convincing no one

Dcdrac, repeat after me: "Irene Zisblatt is a vile hate filled liar."

 

[TSR]

Dcdrac, repeat after me: "Irene Zisblatt is a vile hate filled liar."

I've got a better one, repeat after me: "Irene Zisblatt is irrelevant to the historicity of the Holocaust, and I cannot support my lies about her being defended in this forum"

Makes 33 posts you've been ducking those citations you owe us...

 

[Nessie]

What happened at Belsen was tragic but it cannot be called murder.

For this particular part of our current debate the type of bulldozer used is now of paramount concern.

Please explain why Belsen was not murder and evidence your reasoning. I have already shown how when the Nazis were the guards at any form of camp the death rates were the highest of all participants in WWII

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8475672&postcount=4852

Do you see how evidence works? You state something and then back it up with evidence.

Instead you want to debate bulldozer as a distraction from the paramount issue of you unable to deal properly with evidence.

 

[Dcdrac]

So far Mr traynor through a quick sweep through the net your favourite research method, the only places I find calling this persona liar are the denial delusionist sites.

Do you have an neutral unbiased academically researched evidence for your claim?

 

[Nick Terry]

So far Mr traynor through a quick sweep through the net your favourite research method, the only places I find calling this persona liar are the denial delusionist sites.

Do you have an neutral unbiased academically researched evidence for your claim?

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/irene-zisblatt-diamond-girl-fact-or.html

 

[Dcdrac]

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/irene-zisblatt-diamond-girl-fact-or.html

ok fair enough, but that does not mean the holocaust did not happen because of one liar and fantasist a bit like the deniers themselves

 

[Nick Terry]

ok fair enough, but that does not mean the holocaust did not happen because of one liar and fantasist a bit like the deniers themselves

Of course not.

 

[LemmyCaution]

ok fair enough, but that does not mean the holocaust did not happen because of one liar and fantasist a bit like the deniers themselves

What is interesting is that the tactics and rhetoric of deniers make everyone doubt whatever they claim. Based on experience with their distortions, omissions, and outright lies - as well as with their inability to do the most basic research and to present a conclusion drawn from a variety of sources.

And, right, the existence of some imposters in this case no more invalidates the narrative of the Holocaust than the existence of a number of Stolen Valor imposters negates there having been a war in Vietnam or Iraq. As we get a little tired of explaining, historians - like Joachim Neander in this case - look at multiple sources (thousands of documents, memoirs, testimonies, etc.) and evaluate their reliability. Zisblatt has come up worse than short - and, to my knowledge, has never been used to demonstrate a single point in the Holocaust narrative, yet deniers cannot stop yapping about her.

 

[balmoral]

ok fair enough, but that does not mean the holocaust did not happen because of one liar and fantasist a bit like the deniers themselves

Translated from denialese: "One Jew lied about the Holocaust therefore all Jews lie about the Holocaust, ipso facto, there was no Holocaust."

 

[Straw Man]

Having had the dubious honour of Mr Traynor single me out to try and debunk the tale I related here, I find it difficult to understand how these folks gain any traction at all. His argument against me was negated point by point until it came down to verifying what sort of tractor was used. Did the question of the whole Holocaust come down to a make of tractor?

I'm unsure of exactly what he was trying to achieve, but I have a few ideas.

It certainly stops him having to answer questions.

 

[Charles Traynor]

Golly yes, do not become emotional in any way at the sight of piles of naked people covered in filth being bulldozed into a huge trench.

Unlike trendy urban liberals who like nothing better than having a good cry and a hug when the going gets tough, I have always prided myself on being able to keep my composure in sticky situations.

I’m sure you will agree that individuals who can control their emotions are far less likely to shoot unarmed POWs in the legs or hips for fun than the average hotheaded thug.

 

[Charles Traynor]

Getting desperate, aren't you, Mr Traynor? Try sticking with the discussion, even as every point you try making is shredded.

Or do you want to debate what happened at Belsen before its liberation? Let's wait until we are done with your vicious, inane attempt to debunk Straw Man's narrative, ok?

I am not in any way engaged in a vicious or inane attack on Straw Man’s narrative. Don’t forget Straw came to us with his story and I don’t think there is anything wrong in reviewing it or asking him to expand upon parts of it.

What we have learned thus far from Straw’s account of the liberation of Belsen:

His uncle was an Infantryman.

A few bad apples from the 8th battalion the Rifle Brigade regiment have brought the name of this fine old regiment into disrepute by shooting POWS in the legs and hips for fun.

There is now a general consensus amongst JREF members that the British Royal Engineers were using the D4 model of bulldozer at Belsen.

We are still engaged in discussion as to why Infantrymen would have been asked to operate and/or ride on the outside of the one man operated RE bulldozers.

 

[Charles Traynor]

I haven’t had time to scour my vast collection of WWII archive footage for British bulldozers but I have come up with this close up of the front and left hand side of one of the RE bulldozers used at Belsen.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee226/mralbertfish/bulldozer.jpg


Anyone sitting above the motor compartment is going to obscure the driver’s vision.

What appears to be the fuel tank is mounted on the left side of the vehicle next to the driver. So there is no sitting room here.

There is no track guard fitted to the left side of the vehicle. I doubt there is a track guard on the right side either, but we will confirm that later.

It should also be noted that bulldozers don’t have nice soft suspension systems like tanks, so anyone hanging onto the outside of a D4 is very likely to be sent flying to the ground or into the tracks sooner rather than later.

 

[carlitos]

Just to de-lurk for a little, I thought I'd share an observation as to why the holocaust deniers are irrelevant in real life. I just spent nearly 2 weeks in Berlin. There I saw voluminous documentation of the nazi terror regime, as presented by the Germans themselves. A bunch of wingnuts on the internet really aren't going to have any impact in the real world, when you can walk through a street-length exhibit of the years '21-45, seeing actual photographs of real life people being rounded up and deported after years of subtle discrimination solely for being homosexual, gypsy, Jew, communist, etc. Where you can see Nazi maps of Charlottenburg verified as Juden-Frei, where you can read the words of the Nazis themselves as to their intentions, where you can see the actual train platform where the cars left, etc. etc. etc.

I wouldn't get too emotional about the fantasies / mental illness exhibited here; their efforts are impotent. I know that some of you won't just ignore them, and I do learn some fascinating history on occasion, so keep on keeping on I guess.

 

[Charles Traynor]

Translated from denialese: "One Jew lied about the Holocaust therefore all Jews lie about the Holocaust, ipso facto, there was no Holocaust."

Dearest Balmoral, how good it is to hear from you again. I have to admit I have allowed the real world to interfere with my free time recently and I have sadly fallen behind with the Wahrheit Macht Frei project. However, you must not despair because even as we speak I am taking significant measures to ensure that 2013 will be my most productive year to date since joining the holohoax enthusiast community.

As you know I am a serious researcher but the JREF holocaust forum is not a serious venue for discussing anything remotely related to the alleged Final Solution, hence Zisblatt and the bulldozers. To be honest I am actually sick of hearing Irene Zisblatt’s name.

I came here about 4 weeks ago and exposed Steven Spielberg as a liar and propagandist. At the same time I posted a list of about 10 bullet points showing Lisblatt was a charlatan. Two weeks later I still had some JREF members asking me to prove she was a liar, Duh! It later transpired that most of these individuals were too lazy or ignorant to click on the link to the bullet points (I also posted the BPs here but the Mods in their infinite wisdom deleted them to sabotage me from revealing the truth).

Whenever I think of RODOH I see the phoenix rising again from the ashes.