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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Clayton Moore said:
So you're admitting that that particular memoir was BS?
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No, I have asked you twice now to explain to me what criticising one memoir out of 153 says about all 153 memoirs.

For the sake of argument, lets' say the memoir was BS. You have not demonstrated that it was, and I don't think it's BS. But hypothetically, let's say that memoir was BS.

What would that say about the other 152 memoirs?

To remind you, I invited you to demonstrate that all 153 memoirs were wrong.
 
ANTPogo said:
Charles Traynor's concern is not truth. His concern is solely with spreading his message of Holocaust denial.
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And yet, he is shockingly ineffective at spreading any such message. That makes me think that he, along with most other deniers, have another agenda. Namely trolling.
 
Clayton Moore said:
If the acts of brutality and extermination were not fabrications the camps would have filled with walking potential revenge time bombs. Not only at the camps but where the labor was sent.
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Clayton, I'm wondering what you think of other instances in history in which beatings and murders of vulnerable people occurred with little or no resistance from the populace. Let's take the deaths resulting from the Great Leap Forward in China 1958-1962.

First, there is a wide range of estimates of the number who were killed during this period. Frank Dikoetter, in Mao's Great Famine (which has been brought up here before), estimates that there were 45 million people killed during this period, while other estimates are closer to 30 million. Heck, there is even disagreement over the number of years over which the Great Leap forward continued; Dikoetter says four (1958-1962), while others say three.

Second, the very phenomenon of which you're so incredulous, the abuse and killing of children, was common during this period. The vulnerable were starved and, sometimes, killed without violent protests from the populace. In particular, local party bosses often withheld food from the equivalent of "useless eaters", especially the elderly and children. Moreover, as during the Final Solution, children were often abused and killed for trivial offenses. Dikoetter provides a small sample from the "long and painful list of examples" from party archives.

"...[T]hose considered to be idlers--children, the sick, and the elderly--were abused...Ailong, a thirteen-year-old boy who looked after the ducks in Guadong, was caught digging up roots for food. He was...covered in excrement and..the beatings he received were so ferocious that he was crippled for life. In Luoding county, the local cadre [boss] beat to death an eight-year-old who had stolen a handful of rice. In Hunan, Tan Yunqing, aged twelve, was drowned in a pond like a puppy for having pilfered food from the canteen. Sometimes the parents were forced to inflict the punishment. When a boy stole a handful of grain...local boss Xiong CHangming forced his father to bury him alive. The father died of grief a few days later." (p. 284, http://books.google.com/books?id=5NsMWCHDStQC&q=grief#v=snippet&q=grief&f=true)*

All this continued for four years, and it stopped mostly due to the efforts of one of Mao's senior advisers. These cadres and bosses were confident enough to do the dirty work themselves, which suggests they didn't even worry about maintaining plausible deniability. And, in fact, they were right; the population did not become a "ticking time bomb" as a result of this abuse. For the most part, as Dikoetter's demonstrates, ordinary citizens were too focused on survival to worry about resistance.

So, Clayton, given that local leaders were allowed to kill children with little protest and given the disagreement over the death count and even the period over which the deaths occurred, do you believe that all this occurred? If so, why is the Holocaust held to a different standard?

*To stay within forum rules, I used ellipses to keep the excerpt short. Please see the link for the whole excerpt.
 
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Nick Terry said:
over which years? When did she start speaking to schoolchildren?
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Zisblatt apparently kept quiet about her WWII experiences for 50 years. Spielberg’s The Last Days was released in1998, so it is reasonably safe to assume she began her despicable occupation of brainwashing innocent schoolchildren sometime after that date.
 
Straw Man said:
Clayton, it is my opinion that you live in a fantasy land that suits you. You have been given so much evidence and texts to study, but you come back again and again like a high school kid who had trouble following Cliff Notes.

As I said, my Uncle was part of the British lot that liberated Belsen. I was lucky to get the one shot deal of him telling his story. He wasn't out to garner any sympathy from me, in fact, It was one of those moments where he'd kept quiet for over 50 years, and unleashed after we had attended a memorial service at Belsen. He recalled their fight in the area against Waffen SS troops, meeting those who had reached the main camp, not quite believing what they were saying until he got there himself. He talked about the aroma of death that could be smelled in the air two miles away that became an overpowering, cloying stench that stayed with him after they had moved on. The piles of emaciated corpses that lay there unburied, and the emaciated walking dead that begged for food. The children that appeared, wailing with hands outstretched for something to eat. An officer wordlessly handing his crew a couple of bottles of Scotch. Looking for guards who tried to disguise themselves as prisoners, but were easy to find as they were glowing with health, and the realisation that it was far more fun to shoot them in the legs or hips, rather than kill them outright. Being ordered to take your seat on a D-4, and move the empty husks of human beings into a large hole. This was a man who had not spoken (as far as I'm aware) to anyone, and was used to seeing dead bodies, or even creating them. As he said to me, that was not warfare, that was genocide.

You seem to like photos too, and wonder why there are no photos that will satisfy you. I sincerely wish I could meet your request. As I type this, my uncle's 1915 Watch Pocket Carbine No. 12 sits next to me. It originally belonged to my Grandfather, and went through WWI without a mishap. He had it there at Belsen, and it still bears the dents from him dropping it after being overwhelmed by what he saw. I met one of his 'chums' who was there, and he asked, after 50+ years if he had returned to look for the back of the camera. as I was told, it is hard to take pictures of pain and suffering when your instinct tells you to help out in some way.

I also met someone he had gave his greatcoat to. They were asked to surrender them, and he had left an unwritten postcard in it that allowed one of the inmates to write to him and thank him for the 'gift'. He was a Dutch national that had been in Auschwitz and had his wife and child taken off to the special showers. He'd also had the Barry White beaten out of him, and had managed to get a ride to Belsen, and the wonderful times there. But what does that matter to you? It's merely eyewitness testimony, the lowest form of evidence in your eyes. I guess you'd say they colluded to make a good story for a young man.

What about your heroes, the Germans? I was there in 1989, the 100th birthday of your Dear Leader. I was doing my time in the RAF, not helping in any movies and making sure the red peril didn't move westwards, based in RAF Brüggen. I ended up in a celebration that was full of Real ex-Nazis squeezing into their old uniforms to celebrate old Adolf's birthday. Something that you would have loved. The old boys were very happy to explain why they were celebrating. Mr Hitler had turned their country around. What about the Jews, I asked. They had been controlled to despise them through every media, and they were quite aware that they weren't being moved off to a holiday camp. One old boy told me about the time his brother was told he'd be serving on the Eastern Front. He referred to it as the 'Juden Kuß' The Jew kiss, in reference to the Jews that had been sent eastwards never to be seen again. As you ask so many times, this was answered by Germans who were there at the time. "If we thought it was wrong, who would we complain to?" For me a very poor answer, but an honest one. As one old soldier said to me - "All we knew was what we were told was the truth. Listening to anything else was punishable by death be the Gestapo, and no sane person wanted to end up behind their walls. If you did hear it, you said nothing." the same went for the Jewish neighbours too.

I recommend that you take the time to actually look at the evidence here, and read some of the suggested reading. I'm sure there are many here that had families who eventually told them of their experiences, or have taken the time to carry out real research, and not been swayed by a video or two that fed their prejudices.

As a final thought for you to chew on, Clayton, my uncle was not a big fan of the Jewish community before he left for war. His landlord was Jewish, and he had no love for them, but after what he saw, he did feel different, and he became more tolerant. What he saw with his own eyes, although you will demean it, changed him.
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Holocaust lies never cease to amaze. If a guard was pretending to be a prisoner wouldn't the real prisoners give their liberators a wink and an over there head movement?
 
Border Reiver said:
I could not find anything other than denier websites calling her that in my Google search and somehow based on the denier's inability to provide sources for their stories or actually be able to prove anything. I did however ask for evidence of this alleged hate speech or child molestation Mr Traynor accused her of - still waiting.
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You obviously didn’t search very hard. Here are a couple of links to Zisblatt related data. The first is a short video of her speaking to students at Huntington High School.

http://www.herald-dispatch.com/videos/x140292583/Video-Holocaust-survivor-Irene-Zisblatt

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/auschwitzscrapbook/history/Articles/IreneZisblatt.html
 
Clayton Moore said:
Holocaust lies never cease to amaze. If a guard was pretending to be a prisoner wouldn't the real prisoners give their liberators a wink and an over there head movement?
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Straw Mans uncle also seems to be a Jack of all trades. One minute he is an Infantryman riding around in a Bren Carrier and the next he has donned a Royal Engineers beret and is using heavy plant to bulldoze corpses into a mass grave.

I think Irene Zisblatt would call this story chutzpah for the cause.
 
Charles Traynor said:
Zisblatt apparently kept quiet about her WWII experiences for 50 years. Spielberg’s The Last Days was released in1998, so it is reasonably safe to assume she began her despicable occupation of brainwashing innocent schoolchildren sometime after that date.
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Can you provide us with her itinerary for 2011 and 2012 so far?
 
Cyrix686 said:
Yes. Please do.
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Thirded.



FluffyPersian said:
Clayton, I'm wondering what you think of other instances in history in which beatings and murders of vulnerable people occurred with little or no resistance from the populace. Let's take the deaths resulting from the Great Leap Forward in China 1958-1962.
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I could've saved you some time; he's not even going to acknowledge the existence of your post. He can't even explain why the Jewish POWs wouldn't have been as incensed as their fellows, despite specifically describing them as an exception.

Clayton Moore said:
Holocaust lies never cease to amaze. If a guard was pretending to be a prisoner wouldn't the real prisoners give their liberators a wink and an over there head movement?
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SM specifically says that the liberators were easily able to distinguish the guards from the prisoners just by looking at them. Why would any sort of signal be necessary? Why would it have to be secret or subtle?

Keep in mind, you're not talking about the historical record now. You are directly accusing someone's relative of being a liar. And, curiously, right after someone asks you to explain why the people killed by Mao didn't revolt.
 
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Mr Traynor you have to provide evidence for your assertions to be taken seriously, you have not to date, so why on earth should anyone take you seriously?

The others here have provided stacks of evidence totally destroying your bogus assertions, and bogus they are they do not stand up to close critical examination in any manner shape or form.
 
Cyrix686 said:
This sterner stuff his friends are made up of and that Mr. Traynor discusses, now what exactly is that?
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Apparently whining about being called an anti Semite is displaying stern stuff.
 
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