General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Clayton Moore]

Clayton, it is my opinion that you live in a fantasy land that suits you. You have been given so much evidence and texts to study, but you come back again and again like a high school kid who had trouble following Cliff Notes.

As I said, my Uncle was part of the British lot that liberated Belsen. I was lucky to get the one shot deal of him telling his story. He wasn't out to garner any sympathy from me, in fact, It was one of those moments where he'd kept quiet for over 50 years, and unleashed after we had attended a memorial service at Belsen. He recalled their fight in the area against Waffen SS troops, meeting those who had reached the main camp, not quite believing what they were saying until he got there himself. He talked about the aroma of death that could be smelled in the air two miles away that became an overpowering, cloying stench that stayed with him after they had moved on. The piles of emaciated corpses that lay there unburied, and the emaciated walking dead that begged for food. The children that appeared, wailing with hands outstretched for something to eat. An officer wordlessly handing his crew a couple of bottles of Scotch. Looking for guards who tried to disguise themselves as prisoners, but were easy to find as they were glowing with health, and the realisation that it was far more fun to shoot them in the legs or hips, rather than kill them outright. Being ordered to take your seat on a D-4, and move the empty husks of human beings into a large hole. This was a man who had not spoken (as far as I'm aware) to anyone, and was used to seeing dead bodies, or even creating them. As he said to me, that was not warfare, that was genocide.

You seem to like photos too, and wonder why there are no photos that will satisfy you. I sincerely wish I could meet your request. As I type this, my uncle's 1915 Watch Pocket Carbine No. 12 sits next to me. It originally belonged to my Grandfather, and went through WWI without a mishap. He had it there at Belsen, and it still bears the dents from him dropping it after being overwhelmed by what he saw. I met one of his 'chums' who was there, and he asked, after 50+ years if he had returned to look for the back of the camera. as I was told, it is hard to take pictures of pain and suffering when your instinct tells you to help out in some way.

I also met someone he had gave his greatcoat to. They were asked to surrender them, and he had left an unwritten postcard in it that allowed one of the inmates to write to him and thank him for the 'gift'. He was a Dutch national that had been in Auschwitz and had his wife and child taken off to the special showers. He'd also had the Barry White beaten out of him, and had managed to get a ride to Belsen, and the wonderful times there. But what does that matter to you? It's merely eyewitness testimony, the lowest form of evidence in your eyes. I guess you'd say they colluded to make a good story for a young man.

What about your heroes, the Germans? I was there in 1989, the 100th birthday of your Dear Leader. I was doing my time in the RAF, not helping in any movies and making sure the red peril didn't move westwards, based in RAF Brüggen. I ended up in a celebration that was full of Real ex-Nazis squeezing into their old uniforms to celebrate old Adolf's birthday. Something that you would have loved. The old boys were very happy to explain why they were celebrating. Mr Hitler had turned their country around. What about the Jews, I asked. They had been controlled to despise them through every media, and they were quite aware that they weren't being moved off to a holiday camp. One old boy told me about the time his brother was told he'd be serving on the Eastern Front. He referred to it as the 'Juden Kuß' The Jew kiss, in reference to the Jews that had been sent eastwards never to be seen again. As you ask so many times, this was answered by Germans who were there at the time. "If we thought it was wrong, who would we complain to?" For me a very poor answer, but an honest one. As one old soldier said to me - "All we knew was what we were told was the truth. Listening to anything else was punishable by death be the Gestapo, and no sane person wanted to end up behind their walls. If you did hear it, you said nothing." the same went for the Jewish neighbours too.

I recommend that you take the time to actually look at the evidence here, and read some of the suggested reading. I'm sure there are many here that had families who eventually told them of their experiences, or have taken the time to carry out real research, and not been swayed by a video or two that fed their prejudices.

As a final thought for you to chew on, Clayton, my uncle was not a big fan of the Jewish community before he left for war. His landlord was Jewish, and he had no love for them, but after what he saw, he did feel different, and he became more tolerant. What he saw with his own eyes, although you will demean it, changed him.

Thanks for the fiction.

 

[Moss]

Let's try something different.
Deniers, you claim that there is a conspiracy to inflate the number of victims of the holocaust and to exaggerate the manner of the victims death. As this is a positive claim the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence of the existence of the conspiracy (which includes the members, the time schedule, the coordination and the funds required to put it into practice and also the motive why non Jews should actually play along for more than fifty years). Thus far all you got is "It's got to be there because I won't believe the evidence for what actually happened."
Get your research skills in order and show us that anything of the conspiracy you allege to exist actually exists.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Thanks for the fiction.

What prompts you to call Straw Man's sharing of his experiences with us fiction? What do you know about Straw Man and those with whom he spoke?

My guess is that you know nothing - and once again, out of hand, you dismiss with a one-liner what doesn't match your rather pedestrian biases and what you, plagued by your ignorance and intellectual laziness, can't comprehend. That's my guess. That you know nothing and can't apply reason and knowledge to what Straw Man shared.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I've noticed that the more detailed and lengthy a post is, the more shorter and vague your response is, all the way down to "no response at all" or "not actually a response to a point anyone has made, ever".

And right on cue, as though he can't help himself, up steps Mr Moore with this:

Thanks for the fiction.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Let's try something different.
Deniers, you claim that there is a conspiracy to inflate the number of victims of the holocaust and to exaggerate the manner of the victims death. As this is a positive claim the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence of the existence of the conspiracy (which includes the members, the time schedule, the coordination and the funds required to put it into practice and also the motive why non Jews should actually play along for more than fifty years). Thus far all you got is "It's got to be there because I won't believe the evidence for what actually happened."
Get your research skills in order and show us that anything of the conspiracy you allege to exist actually exists.

There have been "positive" claims in this regard advanced, such as the transit thesis, dealt with here http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2011/12/belzec-sobibor-treblinka-holocaust.html and here http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2011/07/challenge-to-supporters-of-revisionist.html as well as in the JREF threads where we have encountered Little Grey Rabbit's claim that evidence was fabricated in Moscow Forgery Factories here http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7113754&postcount=1333. (The best support LGR could give this notion was that he didn't know a thing about these supposed factories.)

And, if deniers want to say that there is no coordinated hoax, they still have the obligation to describe the abundant evidence, how it came into existence, and why it is not pertinent and sufficient.

As an aside, the JREF page with LGR's floundering around over his forgery claims - deus ex machina being a better term for what he tried - also contains this gem from LGR underscoring Fluffy Persian's comments on the organizational and conspiring abilities of deniers:

Clayton Moore is a Hoaxster in drag. That shouldn't stop you debating him if you feel it is a productive use of your time.

 

[Belz...]

Yet a moment ago you said that



now you say there's a cotttage industry?

Which is it?

It's both, it's neither, it's anything and everything it needs to be for a given post ! Isn't denial grand ?

 

[Belz...]

Thanks for the fiction.

Well, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, the cold, hard truth of holocaust denial: even first-hand accounts are fiction, because they do not fit Clayton's fantasy.

Tell me, Clayton: if pictures and reports and first-hand accounts and all that count for zero for you, am I correct in assuming that NOTHING can ever convince you that you are wrong ? If so, then your position is an ideology -- not based on facts or evidence, but on what you want reality to be.

And still assuming you answered in the positive: do you believe that such a position is a sane and healthy one ?

 

[Nick Terry]

Let's try something different.
Deniers, you claim that there is a conspiracy to inflate the number of victims of the holocaust and to exaggerate the manner of the victims death. As this is a positive claim the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence of the existence of the conspiracy (which includes the members, the time schedule, the coordination and the funds required to put it into practice and also the motive why non Jews should actually play along for more than fifty years). Thus far all you got is "It's got to be there because I won't believe the evidence for what actually happened."
Get your research skills in order and show us that anything of the conspiracy you allege to exist actually exists.

That's an idea that's been tried many times, but despite the fact that deniers delight in crying 'hoax' or insinuating conspiracy, they become strangely coy when asked to elaborate and prove their claims.

 

[Straw Man]

Thanks for the fiction.

This from a man who thinks being close to a war movie equates to military service.

You'd like it to be, wouldn't you, Clayton? It must be hard for you to realise that others are able to speak to those that experienced and saw what went on, and have done so.

You're probably a little jealous that I got to spend the centenary of Der Fuhrer with a room full of his old faithful in Germany, where the authorities liked to gloss over that period, and anything 3rd Reich is verboten.

You'll probably not read or look at anything suggested to you as it all fiction in your eyes. Why have to deal with cold, hard facts when you can get your jew-hating comfort from the University of YouTube and your Aryan Brotherhood pamphlets.

 

[OCaptain]

It's called thinking.

The prisoners weren't given the luxury of time to sit and formulate revenge fantasies.

"Inglourious Basterds" is just a movie.

 

[000063]

And right on cue, as though he can't help himself, up steps Mr Moore with this:

I'm not sure he can. I've made the exact same point before, and he kept doing it. And so do other deniers and CTs. Sometimes they do it multiple times, then claim it wasn't "important" when it's pointed out, such as Doggie's nonsense about relevance. And they rarely actually explain their criteria for "relevance" or "importance", I note.

I mean, Clay just accused someone of outright lying*, presumably on his conviction that Team Holocaust always lies, and anyone defending the OS is part of Team Holocaust.

*Except CTs rarely ever explicitly say people they are actually talking to are lying, for some reason. They say words that translate directly to "you're lying", especially "disingenuous", but never actually say so.

 

[000063]

Well, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, the cold, hard truth of holocaust denial: even first-hand accounts are fiction, because they do not fit Clayton's fantasy.

Tell me, Clayton: if pictures and reports and first-hand accounts and all that count for zero for you, am I correct in assuming that NOTHING can ever convince you that you are wrong ? If so, then your position is an ideology -- not based on facts or evidence, but on what you want reality to be.

And still assuming you answered in the positive: do you believe that such a position is a sane and healthy one ?

You're assuming he'll answer.

 

[Belz...]

You're assuming he'll answer.

No, actually I am assuming he won't.

 

[Moss]

It's called thinking.

The best thinking is useless if the data you base it on is flawed or nonexistent.

 

[Charles Traynor]

Moin moin, this Saturday I have decided to take stock of my activities during the short time I have been posting JREF.

A few weeks ago the first topic I covered was Steven Spielberg’s misinformation film The Last Days and the blatant lies told by the “survivors” starring in it.

I hadn’t really researched this topic well enough and was relying on memory alone to get me through. It came as no real surprise then that I eventually took a hit from exterminationists for claiming Spielberg had directed another film, The Liberators, when he had not (he was one of the producers). However, during the course of the discussion I was shocked by the degree of wilful ignorance surrounding Spielberg’s propaganda activities by the JREF exterminationist community.

The subject of, Irene Zisblatt, the diamond girl of Auschwitz, also came up at this time, and although I already understood JREF members are not critical thinkers by any stretch of the imagination, I was shocked by the degree of their conformist mindset and reluctance to explore new holocaust knowledge.

Despite the fact Zisblatt had been previously exposed as a liar and several links were left to reputable Websites debunking here ridiculous claims, JREF exterminationists continued to defend her unconditionally. Solidarity in her defence only collapsed when one renegade Believer, LemmyCaution, had the integrity to admit Zisblatt was full of BS.

http://www.holocaustdenier.com/questions-for-holohoax-promoters/

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.de/2010/01/irene-zisblatt-diamond-girl-fact-or.html

I can understand why zealots like TSR, Belz... and Cyrix686 would choose to defend Zisblatt to the bitter end. They know the only evidence exterminationists have for the homicidal gas chambers comes from the testimonies of eyewitnesses like Zisblatt. To admit “survivors” have lied about one part of their story is the beginning of a slippery slope to eventually admitting they could also have lied about the gas chambers.

Other JREF members like Border Reiver, 000063, Robrob and ANTPogo who also supported Zisblatt revealed their almost adolescent gullibility and excitability whilst directing a torrent of mindless insults at me. Shame on you!

Last weekend I also found myself under attack for asking some simple questions about the liberation of Auschwitz. Until I logged in on Saturday afternoon exterminationists like ANTPogo had been merrily posting links to pictures of corpses who had supposedly been killed by the Germans just prior to the the so-called liberation of the camp. When I asked for links to still photography or movie footage of the alleged homicidal gas chambers taken at this time, the mood suddenly changed, and without the need of an order to do so, the usual exterminationist reflex tactic of mobbing anyone with challenging questions came into immediate effect.

What became apparent very early on in this discussion was that the majority of exterminationists here have never seen the Soviet liberation footage of Auschwitz and were very quickly reduced to relying on a Hofnarren like TSR for guidance.

The very fact that JREF exterminationists chose to engage in shenanigans over that liberation topic rather than discussing it in an honest and forthright manner will have given the attentive reader some very big clues regarding the integrity of those who defend the holocaust lie here at JREF. The regular labelling of holocaust revisionists as anti-Semites is another questionable tactic and a means of attempting to silence those who question the official version of WWII history. Have you people no shame?

Regardless of the challenges and frustrations facing any honest fellow posting at JREF, I will continue to do so in an attempt to expose the hatemongering and underhand tactics currently being employed here to drown out the historical truth regarding WWII. If my efforts save just one casual Internet surfer from being seduced by the vile holocaust lie then all my work here will have been well worth it.

 

[Nick Terry]

The subject of, Irene Zisblatt, the diamond girl of Auschwitz, also came up at this time, and although I already understood JREF members are not critical thinkers by any stretch of the imagination, I was shocked by the degree of their conformist mindset and reluctance to explore new holocaust knowledge.

Despite the fact Zisblatt had been previously exposed as a liar and several links were left to reputable Websites debunking here ridiculous claims, JREF exterminationists continued to defend her unconditionally. Solidarity in her defence only collapsed when one renegade Believer, LemmyCaution, had the integrity to admit Zisblatt was full of BS.

http://www.holocaustdenier.com/questions-for-holohoax-promoters/

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.de/2010/01/irene-zisblatt-diamond-girl-fact-or.html

I can understand why zealots like TSR, Belz... and Cyrix686 would choose to defend Zisblatt to the bitter end. They know the only evidence exterminationists have for the homicidal gas chambers comes from the testimonies of eyewitnesses like Zisblatt. To admit “survivors” have lied about one part of their story is the beginning of a slippery slope to eventually admitting they could also have lied about the gas chambers.

Other JREF members like Border Reiver, 000063, Robrob and ANTPogo who also supported Zisblatt revealed their almost adolescent gullibility and excitability whilst directing a torrent of mindless insults at me. Shame on you!

What a load of tosh. Literally nobody has defended Zisblatt. Links or withdraw your claim forthwith. Thread search tool works perfectly well so pony up proof or stfu.

 

[A'isha]

I hadn’t really researched this topic well enough

Maybe you should try doing that before posting here.

and was relying on memory alone to get me through. It came as no real surprise then that I eventually took a hit from exterminationists for claiming Spielberg had directed another film, The Liberators, when he had not (he was one of the producers).

No he wasn't.

Other JREF members like Border Reiver, 000063, Robrob and ANTPogo who also supported Zisblatt revealed their almost adolescent gullibility and excitability whilst directing a torrent of mindless insults at me. Shame on you!

Funny, I can't recall ever posting a single thing about Zisblatt. Would you be so kind as to provide a link to my "support" of her?

Last weekend I also found myself under attack for asking some simple questions about the liberation of Auschwitz. Until I logged in on Saturday afternoon exterminationists like ANTPogo had been merrily posting links to pictures of corpses who had supposedly been killed by the Germans just prior to the the so-called liberation of the camp.

I posted two links in response to a direct request from your fellow denier. Who promptly ran as far and as fast from them as he could.

When I asked for links to still photography or movie footage of the alleged homicidal gas chambers taken at this time, the mood suddenly changed, and without the need of an order to do so, the usual exterminationist reflex tactic of mobbing anyone with challenging questions came into immediate effect.

And I informed you that the same links I gave to Dogzilla also contained what you were asking for.

 

[Charles Traynor]

As I said, my Uncle was part of the British lot that liberated Belsen. I was lucky to get the one shot deal of him telling his story. He wasn't out to garner any sympathy from me, in fact, It was one of those moments where he'd kept quiet for over 50 years, and unleashed after we had attended a memorial service at Belsen. He recalled their fight in the area against Waffen SS troops, meeting those who had reached the main camp, not quite believing what they were saying until he got there himself.

Alright, I’ll play along with this.

What part of the British army was your uncle a member of? Please be specific.

What Waffen SS units were they in combat with just prior to the liberation of the camp?

I’m sure you will agree these are very simple questions you should be able to answer, I look forward to your speedy reply.

 

[TSR]

I hadn’t really researched this topic well enough

That's actually quite typical of deniers -- most do not know very much about the history they are so rabid to rewrite, and most of *that* is what they have been spoon fed by more clever deniers than they are.

and was relying on memory alone to get me through.

And we will see below how very bad your memory is...

JREF exterminationists continued to defend her unconditionally. Solidarity in her defence only collapsed when one renegade Believer, LemmyCaution, had the integrity to admit Zisblatt was full of BS.

You can, of course, actually *cite* someone here "defending" her?

Of course, you can't -- it's that rotten memory thing you live by kicking you in the head again.

I can understand why zealots like TSR, Belz... and Cyrix686 would choose to defend Zisblatt to the bitter end.

And this "understanding" is based on nothing more than your visceral need that it be so, since no one mentioned has defended her.

They know the only evidence exterminationists have for the homicidal gas chambers comes from the testimonies of eyewitnesses like Zisblatt.

Ummm.


No.



That you pretend to believe that this is the case only demonstrates the intellectual bankruptcy at the core of your denial.

To admit “survivors” have lied about one part of their story is the beginning of a slippery slope to eventually admitting they could also have lied about the gas chambers.

How many different ways do you need it to be said that it DOES NOT MATTER to the historicity of the Holocaust if Ziblatt lied or not, since 9despiite your lies to the contrary) there is not a single person either here or in mainstream historiography who uses her as source?

Other JREF members like Border Reiver, 000063, Robrob and ANTPogo who also supported Zisblatt revealed their almost adolescent gullibility and excitability whilst directing a torrent of mindless insults at me. Shame on you!

No, shame on you for lying about what these people actually did say.


Do you really feel you can fool anyone at all into believing your transparent lies on this subject, let alone the entirety of the Holocaust?

What became apparent very early on in this discussion was that the majority of exterminationists here have never seen the Soviet liberation footage of Auschwitz and were very quickly reduced to relying on a Hofnarren like TSR for guidance.

Ooooo! An Ad Hom in another language! How very convincing!

Really got under your skin, didn't I?

The very fact that JREF exterminationists chose to engage in shenanigans over that liberation topic rather than discussing it in an honest and forthright manner will have given the attentive reader some very big clues regarding the integrity of those who defend the holocaust lie here at JREF.

*You* presume to lecture 8us* on honesty?

Tell you what, I'll make a bet with you.


If you cite, within the next 24 hours, a single instance of my "defending" Zisblatt by message ID, I will not respond to you again for 6 months.

When you can't, you stop lying for the same period.


Deal?

The regular labelling of holocaust revisionists as anti-Semites is another questionable tactic and a means of attempting to silence those who question the official version of WWII history. Have you people no shame?

No, *that* accusation (unlike your lame "defending" one) can be supported on the facts of the matter.

Regardless of the challenges and frustrations facing any honest fellow posting at JREF, I will continue to do so in an attempt to expose the hatemongering and underhand tactics currently being employed here to drown out the historical truth regarding WWII.

By using those tactics in an even more transparent manner than you have been?

If my efforts save just one casual Internet surfer from being seduced by the vile holocaust lie then all my work here will have been well worth it.

Here's a more productive idea: stop telling those lies, then there will be less by which they can be "seduced".

How's that sound?

 

[Corsair 115]

I ended up in a celebration that was full of Real ex-Nazis squeezing into their old uniforms to celebrate old Adolf's birthday. Something that you would have loved. The old boys were very happy to explain why they were celebrating. Mr Hitler had turned their country around.

In regards to the bolded, "turned their country around" meant seeing it wrecked from one end to the other and roughly five million of its citizens dead. If that's their idea of a successful turn around, I'd hate to see what they consider a disaster.