• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

Status
Not open for further replies.
scratchy said:
To make the thread title a little more to the point, we could discuss if the holocaust denial actually isnt a conspiracy in itself, one that actually exist. It is sometimes rather obvious that at least the leading figures of holocaust denial is fabricating and willfully lying, one could even say conspiring.
Click to expand...

If it's a conspiracy, it's a poorly executed one given the amount of disagreement between deniers.
 
Clayton Moore said:
The difference is obvious. A person can be intimidated by threats of violence. Once the threat is carried out the threat becomes empty and thoughts of revenge take over. And weigh and weigh and weigh and weigh till hell freezes over.

And SNAP.

If the acts of brutality and extermination were not fabrications the camps would have filled with walking potential revenge time bombs. Not only at the camps but where the labor was sent.
Click to expand...

I'm curious, what kind of education did you receive that would allow you to make such sweeping generalizations about human behaviour during duress and incarceration? I'd like to see the studies that provide evidence that this is the only possible reaction.
 
Clayton Moore said:
The difference is obvious. A person can be intimidated by threats of violence. Once the threat is carried out the threat becomes empty and thoughts of revenge take over. And weigh and weigh and weigh and weigh till hell freezes over.

And SNAP.

If the acts of brutality and extermination were not fabrications the camps would have filled with walking potential revenge time bombs. Not only at the camps but where the labor was sent.
Click to expand...

So your position now is that empty words are more effective than violent or other actions against people? You live on a curious planet, Mr Moore.

Try answering the questions you've been asked about Jewish resistance: (1) How many of the works listed by Nick have you read? (2) How did these works lead you to conclude the historians treat Europe's Jews during WW2 as lemmings? (3) What particular points will you refute in any one the works?
 
Moss said:
I'm curious, what kind of education did you receive that would allow you to make such sweeping generalizations about human behaviour during duress and incarceration? I'd like to see the studies that provide evidence that this is the only possible reaction.
Click to expand...

In Mr Moore's world, mere laws against incitement and hate speech, and a handful of incidents have the brave deniers of the world 99.44% cowed into submission - whilst under Nazi rule a decade of legal deprivations and discrimination, arrests, detention, mob violence, confiscations, deportations and expulsions, and the butchery carried out against Jews during WW2 should have encouraged every last one of the potential victims to be so freaking angry - and well organized and prepared - that he or she would have rebelled.

In this "discussion," Mr Moore has 1) refused to be tethered to earth by evidence, which, as you note, shows that Jewish reactions to the Nazis varied widely, based on the circumstances, including personal ones, 2) developed arbitrary standards and principles which fit in with his biases, 3) applied different logic to different groups of people and judged them by different standards, and 4) lied repeatedly about what historians and members of this forum maintain with regard to Jewish resistance to the Nazis.
 
Last edited:
Q: How many of the cited articles has Mr. Moore read?

A: They would have been walking time bombs.
 
Clayton Moore said:
The difference is obvious. A person can be intimidated by threats of violence. Once the threat is carried out the threat becomes empty and thoughts of revenge take over. And weigh and weigh and weigh and weigh till hell freezes over.

And SNAP.

If the acts of brutality and extermination were not fabrications the camps would have filled with walking potential revenge time bombs. Not only at the camps but where the labor was sent.
Click to expand...

Dead people don't think.
 
Moss said:
I'm curious, what kind of education did you receive that would allow you to make such sweeping generalizations about human behaviour during duress and incarceration? I'd like to see the studies that provide evidence that this is the only possible reaction.
Click to expand...

Now the answer there would have to be the same as for everything else that rubs up against his religion, a big fat, "none." No studies. Stundies maybe. Studies proving that people who lived through the time of National Socialism considering them enemies would all become walking time-bombs and or were Jewish "lemmings."

Oh look, it's "none" again. <SNIP>

Hmmm.

Edited by Locknar: 
Edited, breach of rule 12.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Clayton Moore said:
The difference is obvious. A person can be intimidated by threats of violence. Once the threat is carried out the threat becomes empty and thoughts of revenge take over. And weigh and weigh and weigh and weigh till hell freezes over.

And SNAP.

If the acts of brutality and extermination were not fabrications the camps would have filled with walking potential revenge time bombs. Not only at the camps but where the labor was sent.
Click to expand...
Yet another "argument from incredulity?"

CM, as your posts continually prove - you simply make it up as you go.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Most of those people were probably never there.
Click to expand...

Ah. So you've gone from "never existed" to "most of them never existed". Progress.

It's cute how you can't actually respond to Terry's post. I've noticed that the more detailed and lengthy a post is, the more shorter and vague your response is, all the way down to "no response at all" or "not actually a response to a point anyone has made, ever".

Clayton Moore said:
The difference is obvious. A person can be intimidated by threats of violence. Once the threat is carried out the threat becomes empty and thoughts of revenge take over.
Click to expand...
And if the threat is, y'know, death? You are aware that the kid who gets beat up by a bully on Monday can be beaten up just as easily on Tuesday?

And weigh and weigh and weigh and weigh till hell freezes over.

And SNAP.
Click to expand...
But only, of course, for the Jews. And only for the ones who weren't POWs.

If the acts of brutality and extermination were not fabrications the camps would have filled with walking potential revenge time bombs. Not only at the camps but where the labor was sent.
Click to expand...

Other genocides, etc. I've made those same points at least a half-dozen times already. It actually takes quite a lot for people to not care about their own safety. There's quite a large amount of research on it, your incredulity notwithstanding. I'm sure there are people in Africa under the thumb of oppression right now who would be pleased to learn they are ticking time bombs and the sorry excuses for human beings that do things like rape them at gunpoint are actually trembling in their boots.

And, of course, you're trying to distract us from the fact that you're ignoring the Doc's post.

Cyrix686 said:
Q: How many of the cited articles has Mr. Moore read?

A: They would have been walking time bombs.
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly. Thank you, Cyrix.

Clayton Moore said:
It's called thinking.
Click to expand...

I don't think so.
 
Last edited:
Clayton, it is my opinion that you live in a fantasy land that suits you. You have been given so much evidence and texts to study, but you come back again and again like a high school kid who had trouble following Cliff Notes.

As I said, my Uncle was part of the British lot that liberated Belsen. I was lucky to get the one shot deal of him telling his story. He wasn't out to garner any sympathy from me, in fact, It was one of those moments where he'd kept quiet for over 50 years, and unleashed after we had attended a memorial service at Belsen. He recalled their fight in the area against Waffen SS troops, meeting those who had reached the main camp, not quite believing what they were saying until he got there himself. He talked about the aroma of death that could be smelled in the air two miles away that became an overpowering, cloying stench that stayed with him after they had moved on. The piles of emaciated corpses that lay there unburied, and the emaciated walking dead that begged for food. The children that appeared, wailing with hands outstretched for something to eat. An officer wordlessly handing his crew a couple of bottles of Scotch. Looking for guards who tried to disguise themselves as prisoners, but were easy to find as they were glowing with health, and the realisation that it was far more fun to shoot them in the legs or hips, rather than kill them outright. Being ordered to take your seat on a D-4, and move the empty husks of human beings into a large hole. This was a man who had not spoken (as far as I'm aware) to anyone, and was used to seeing dead bodies, or even creating them. As he said to me, that was not warfare, that was genocide.

You seem to like photos too, and wonder why there are no photos that will satisfy you. I sincerely wish I could meet your request. As I type this, my uncle's 1915 Watch Pocket Carbine No. 12 sits next to me. It originally belonged to my Grandfather, and went through WWI without a mishap. He had it there at Belsen, and it still bears the dents from him dropping it after being overwhelmed by what he saw. I met one of his 'chums' who was there, and he asked, after 50+ years if he had returned to look for the back of the camera. as I was told, it is hard to take pictures of pain and suffering when your instinct tells you to help out in some way.

I also met someone he had gave his greatcoat to. They were asked to surrender them, and he had left an unwritten postcard in it that allowed one of the inmates to write to him and thank him for the 'gift'. He was a Dutch national that had been in Auschwitz and had his wife and child taken off to the special showers. He'd also had the Barry White beaten out of him, and had managed to get a ride to Belsen, and the wonderful times there. But what does that matter to you? It's merely eyewitness testimony, the lowest form of evidence in your eyes. I guess you'd say they colluded to make a good story for a young man.

What about your heroes, the Germans? I was there in 1989, the 100th birthday of your Dear Leader. I was doing my time in the RAF, not helping in any movies and making sure the red peril didn't move westwards, based in RAF Brüggen. I ended up in a celebration that was full of Real ex-Nazis squeezing into their old uniforms to celebrate old Adolf's birthday. Something that you would have loved. The old boys were very happy to explain why they were celebrating. Mr Hitler had turned their country around. What about the Jews, I asked. They had been controlled to despise them through every media, and they were quite aware that they weren't being moved off to a holiday camp. One old boy told me about the time his brother was told he'd be serving on the Eastern Front. He referred to it as the 'Juden Kuß' The Jew kiss, in reference to the Jews that had been sent eastwards never to be seen again. As you ask so many times, this was answered by Germans who were there at the time. "If we thought it was wrong, who would we complain to?" For me a very poor answer, but an honest one. As one old soldier said to me - "All we knew was what we were told was the truth. Listening to anything else was punishable by death be the Gestapo, and no sane person wanted to end up behind their walls. If you did hear it, you said nothing." the same went for the Jewish neighbours too.

I recommend that you take the time to actually look at the evidence here, and read some of the suggested reading. I'm sure there are many here that had families who eventually told them of their experiences, or have taken the time to carry out real research, and not been swayed by a video or two that fed their prejudices.

As a final thought for you to chew on, Clayton, my uncle was not a big fan of the Jewish community before he left for war. His landlord was Jewish, and he had no love for them, but after what he saw, he did feel different, and he became more tolerant. What he saw with his own eyes, although you will demean it, changed him.
 
Clayton Moore said:
It's called thinking.
Click to expand...

No, it's called "living in a fantasy world".

Since you apparently missed it the first time:


TSR said:
To bring this back where it is actually on-topic:
And I'm offended by the lying Zionists and the lying Zionist hugging fabricators who accuse most all of Europe, the Catholic Church, the USA, the IRC and others of being complicit to an imaginary Holocaust.
Click to expand...
Of course, that no one is making that accusation doesn't seem to matter much to you, nor that no one here AFAICR has offered an opinion on Zionism other than deniers.
I can't wait for the day the Holocaust lies are exposed to everyone.
Click to expand...
Pretty much every time you post, another lie is exposed.

Of course, they all seem to be *yours*. Like, for example, your use of "Zionist" above, when you very obviously mean "Jooos".
What did happen to the Jewish people of that time was cruel and unfair but it was no Holocaust, no attempt to exterminate the Jewish people of Europe.
Click to expand...

So, in your lofty opinion, what *did* "happen", and why even as you try to minimize it can you not bring yourself to say "what the Nazis did" as opposed to the more impersonal "what happened"?
Click to expand...


Show us the evidence.
 
Last edited:
Clayton Moore said:
Most of those people were probably never there.
Click to expand...

But we were talking about this stupid comment of yours:

Today's Holocaust huggers present the Jewish people of that time as lemmings.
Click to expand...

so whether 'today's Holocaust huggers' were there or not is irrelevant. The fact is that historians today present the Jewish people of that time as anything but lemmings. They pay a lot of attention to resistance and escape attempts.
 
Clayton Moore said:
The difference is obvious. A person can be intimidated by threats of violence. Once the threat is carried out the threat becomes empty and thoughts of revenge take over. And weigh and weigh and weigh and weigh till hell freezes over.

And SNAP.
Click to expand...

Now you're not even addressing what 'today's Holocaust huggers' actually say. You're just making crap up.

If the acts of brutality and extermination were not fabrications the camps would have filled with walking potential revenge time bombs. Not only at the camps but where the labor was sent.
Click to expand...

Warsaw ghetto uprising
Bialystok ghetto uprising
Bielski partisans
Destruction of German garrison at Lenin
Revolt at Treblinka
Revolt at Sobibor
Sonderkommando revolt at Birkenau

and that's just some of what's on Wikipedia, much less what else is known.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom