General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Nick Terry]

Apologies if this is a bit long winded, but wanted to thank forum members for helping to increase my knowledge and understanding of the holocaust.

I didn't take history as an exam subject at school, so my formal learning about history stopped when I was 14.

The holocaust, to me, has always been something that must be remembered to serve as a reminder of how cruel people can be to each other and the dangers of blindly following orders issued by a charismatic leader. It shows how easy it seems to be to get a large section of a country performing despicable acts on other people once you have convinced them that the victims are less than fully human.

Over the years I've watched documentaries about the holocaust, including the excellent dramatisation of the Wannsee conference produced by the BBC, but it is only recently that my interest has increased into a need to know exactly what happened.

This increase in interest is largely due to reading posts in this thread, so I would really like to thank Clayton Moore, Dogzilla, Snake Tongue and the long lost Saggy for reviving my interest. Having read their desperate attempts to deny the holocaust, I have read the information, and links to original documents, posted by Dcdrac, Nick Terry, LemmyCaution and many other knowledgable posters that provide the real history of the holocaust.

As a consequence, I've ordered these books from Amazon, as a bit of light summer reading to further my understanding.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Denying-Holocaust-Growing-Assault-Memory/dp/0452272742/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342776260&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Auschwitz-The-Nazis-Final-Solution/dp/0563522968/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342776426&sr=8-1

Also found some interesting and useful information on the Axis History forum, in the holocaust and war crime section.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewforum.php?f=6&sid=4c2ffcc7eaa4dd7189fe1e39f242ea2b

And the Holocaust Controversies site.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/

Only found these two websites at the weekend, so haven't delved fully into them yet.

Also found many hate-filled denier sites that REALLY don't like Nick Terry, and do their best to discredit him. Obviously, to any reasonable person, they fail miserably.

So, thankyou to all of the posters in this thread, including the deniers as their pathetic arguements are doing such an excellent job of confirming that the holocaust happened!

Multivac's post illustrates the paradox of denial perfectly. By discussing the thing they want to see erased from public consciousness, deniers end up stimulating further interest in the very thing they hate. I suspect that a dozen people or more have probably been inspired to read books on the Holocaust by those threads and might not otherwise have done so. Certainly many dozens more looked up sources and websites. Denier activism on the internet is thus completely counterproductive.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Multivac's post illustrates the paradox of denial perfectly. By discussing the thing they want to see erased from public consciousness, deniers end up stimulating further interest in the very thing they hate. I suspect that a dozen people or more have probably been inspired to read books on the Holocaust by those threads and might not otherwise have done so. Certainly many dozens more looked up sources and websites. Denier activism on the internet is thus completely counterproductive.

[SNIP]. The impossibilities have been provided over and over and over. The liars have been exposed over and over and over. Millions of Jewish people suddenly go missing and there are no millions of outcries.

Today's Holocaust huggers present the Jewish people of that time as lemmings.

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[TSR]

Edited by kmortis: 

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The impossibilities have been provided over and over and over.

.. and then demonstrated to have no basis in fact.

Unless you are referring to the impossibility of denying a history about which you know next to nothing...

The liars have been exposed over and over and over.

And yet, you continue to post them/

Millions of Jewish people suddenly go missing and there are no millions of outcries.

Doesn't this directly contradict your lie about "<accusing> almost every non Jewish organization in Europe of being complicit or of looking the other way while millions Jewish people were ... being exterminated"?

Today's Holocaust huggers present the Jewish people of that time as lemmings.

No, we present them as being fellow human beings.

While *you* present them as being superhuman revenge machines, able to do what 94.% of the rest of us are incapable of.

 

[Nick Terry]

[SNIP] The impossibilities have been provided over and over and over. The liars have been exposed over and over and over.

Nope.

Millions of Jewish people suddenly go missing and there are no millions of outcries.

http://archive.jta.org/

you have a goldfish memory, Clayton.

Today's Holocaust huggers present the Jewish people of that time as lemmings.

So all these authors below are presenting Jews as lemmings? Even when writing about resistance and life in hiding?

1. Ainsztein, Reuben, Jewish Resistance in Nazi-Occupied Eastern Europe. London, 1974
2. Arens, Moshe, ‘The Jewish Military Organization (ŻZW) in the Warsaw Ghetto’, Holocaust & Genocide Studies, Sep2005, Vol. 19 Issue 2, p201-225
3. Grabski, August, Zydowski ruch kombatancki w Polsce w latach 1944–1949 (Warsaw: Trio, 2002)
4. Bender, Sara, The Jews of Bialystok during World War II and the Holocaust. London, 2008
5. Bogner, Nahum, “The Convent Children: The Rescue of Jewish Children in Polish Convents During the Holocaust,” Yad Vashem Studies XXVII, 1999, 1999, pp.235–85
6. Bojemski, Sebastian, “Jewish members in the right-wing NSZ,” The Sarmatian Review, vol. XXII, no. 3 (September 2002)
7. Cholawsky, Shalom, The Jews of Bielorussia During World War II. Amsterdam, 1998
8. Cohen, Raya, ‘ "Against the Current": Hashomer Hatzair in the Warsaw Ghetto’, Jewish Social Studies, New Series, Vol. 7, No. 1 (Autumn, 2000), pp. 63-80
9. Corni, Gustavo, Hitler’s Ghettos: Voices from a Beleaguered Society, 1939-1944. London: Bloomsbury, 2002
10. Blatman, Daniel, For Our Freedom and Yours: The Jewish Labour Bund in Poland, 1939–1949. London and Portland, Oregon: Vallentine Mitchell, 2003
11. Datner, Szymon, Walka i zagłada białostockiego ghetta. Łódź : [Centralna Żydowska-Komisja Históryczna], 1946. 48p. Centralna Żydowska-Komisja Históryczna. Oddział w Białymstoku . Książki ; No.1.
12. Engelking, Barbara, Jest taki piekny sloneczny dzien... Losy Zydow szukajacych ratunku na wsi polskiej 1942-1945. Warsaw: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badan nad Zaglada Zydow, 2011
13. Fatran, Gila, ‘The “Working Group”,’ HGS 8/2, 1994, pp.164-201
14. Friedman, Philip, Martyrs and Fighters: the Epic of the Warsaw Ghetto. New York: Fredrick A. Praeger, 1954
15. Friedman, Philip, Their Brothers’ Keepers. New York: Crown Publishers, 1957
16. Frilling, Tuvia, Arrows in the Dark. David Ben-Gurion, the Yishuv Leadership, and Rescue Attempts During the Holocaust. Madison: The University of Wisconsin Press, 2005
17. Golczewski, Franz ‘Die Heimatarmee und die Juden’ in Bernhard Chiari (ed), Die polnische Heimatarmee. Geschichte und Mythos der Armia Krajowa seit dem Zweiten Weltkrieg. Munich: Oldenbourg, 1999, pp.635-676
18. Golczewski, Franz, ‘Shades of Grey: Reflections on Jewish-Ukrainian and German-Ukrainian Relations in Galicia’ in: Ray Brandon and Wendy Lower (eds), The Shoah in Ukraine. History, Testimony, Memorialization. Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 2008, pp.114-155
19. Grabitz, Helga and Scheffler, Wolfgang, Letzte Spuren: Ghetto Warschau- SS-Arbeitslager Trawniki – Aktion Erntefest. Berlin, 1988
20. Grabowski, Jan, Judenjagd. Polowanie na Zydow 1942-1945. Studium dziejow pewnego powiatu. Warsaw: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badan nad Zaglada Zydow, 2011
21. Jan Grabowski, "Szmalcownicy warszawscy, 1939-1942," Zeszyty Historynne, 2003, no. 143,85-117.
22. Gutman, Yisrael and Krakowski, Shmuel, Unequal Victims. Poles and Jews during World War Two. New York: Holocaust Library, 1987
23. Gutman, Yisrael, ‘The Youth Movements in Eastern Europe as an Alternative Leadership’, HGS 3/1, 1988, pp.69-74
24. Ioffe, Emanuil and Selemenev, Viacheslav (intr.), ‘Jewish Refugees from Poland in Belorussia, 1939-1940’, Jews in Eastern Europe, Spring 1997, pp.45-50
25. Kassow, Samuel, Who Will Write Our History? Rediscovering a Hidden Archive from the Warsaw Ghetto. London, 2007
26. Krakowski, Shmuel, The War of the Doomed. Jewish Armed Resistance in Poland, 1942-1944. New York, 1984
27. Krakowski, Stefan [Shmuel], “_ydzi w oddziałach partyzanckich Gwardii Ludowej i Armii Ludowej na Kielecczyznie,” Biuletyn _ydowskiego Instytutu Historycznego (Warsaw), nos. 65–66 (1968):
28. Kurek, Ewa. Your Life Is Worth Mine: How Polish Nuns Saved Hundreds of Jewish Children in German-Occupied Poland, 1939–1945. New York: Hippocrene, 1997.
29. Levine, Allan. Fugitives of the Forest: The Heroic Story of Jewish Resistance and Survival during the Second World War. Toronto: Stoddart, 1998.
30. Lewandowska, Stanislawa, Ruch oporu na Podlasie 1939-1944. Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Ministerstwa Obrony Narodowej, 1976
31. Lewandowski, Józef, ‘Jak to było w rzeczywistości. Informacje o Zagładzie w listach Bundu’, Biuletyn ŻIH, 2000, nr 194, s. 236−242 i 242−247
32. Lubling, Yoram, Twice-dead. Moshe Y. Lubling, the Ethics of Memory, and the Treblinka Revolt. Petr Lang: New York, 2007
33. Meczeństwo, walka zagłada Żydów w Polsce, 1939-1945 : [Scenariusz, teksty, wybór zdjęć i dokumentów / Adam Rutkowski.. Wyd. 1. Warszawa] Wydawn : Ministerstwa Obrony Narodowej , [1960]. xix, 11 p. 541: illus., ports ; 29 cm.
34. Merin, Yehuda, Jack Nusan Porter, ‘Three Jewish Family-Camps in the Forests of Volyn, Ukraine during the Holocaust’, Jewish Social Studies, Vol. 46, No. 1 (Winter, 1984), pp. 83-92
35. Michman, Dan, Holocaust Historiography: A Jewish Perspective. Conceptualizations, Terminology, Approaches and Fundamental Issues. London: Vallentine Mitchell, 2003
36. Monkiewicz, Waldemar, “Za cene _ycia: O ratowaniu _ydów w Białostockiem o okresie okupacji niemieckiej,” in Dobronski and Monkiewicz, eds., Białostoccy _ydzi, vol. 2,
37. Monkiewicz, Waldemar and Józef Kowalczyk, “Pomoc Zydom w regionie białostockim podczas II wojny swiatowej,” Studia Podlaskie, vol. 2 (1989)
38. Paulsson, Gunnar S., ‘Das Verhältnis zwischen Polen und Juden im besetzten Warschau, 1940-1945’ in: „Aktion Reinhardt”. Der Völkermord an den Juden im Generalgouvernement 1941-1944 / hrsg. von Bogdan Musial. – Osnabrück, 2004, pp.383-404
39. Paulsson, Gunnar S., Secret city : the hidden Jews of Warsaw, 1940-1945. New Haven : Yale University Press, c2002.
40. Paulsson, Gunnar S.,“Ringelblum Revisited: Polish-Jewish Relations in Occupied Warsaw, 1940–1945,” in Joshua D. Zimmerman (ed.), Contested Memories: Poles and Jews during the Holocaust and Its Aftermath (New Brunswick, New Jersey and London: Rutgers University Press, 2003), pp. 173–92
41. Porat, Dina, The Blue and Yellow Stars of David: The Zionist Leadership and the. Holocaust 1939–1945. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1990
42. Porat, Dina, The Fall of a Sparrow: The Life and Times of Abba Kovner (Stanford, California: Stanford University Press, 2010)
43. Prekerowa, Teresa, “Zydzi w Powstaniu Warszawskim,” in Marian Marek Drozdowski et al. (eds.), Powstanie Warszawskie z perspektywy półwiecza: Studia i materiały z sesji naukowej na Zamku Królewskim w Warszawie 14–15 czerwca 1994 (Warsaw: Instytut Historyczny PAN, 1995)
44. Prekerowa, Teresa. “Stosunek ludności polskiej do żydowskich uciekinierów z obozów zagłady w Treblince, Sobiborze i Bełżcu w świetle relacji żydowskich i polskich.” Biuletyn Głównej Komisji Badania Zbrodni przeciwko Narodowi Polskiemu–Instytutu Pamięci Nardowej, no. 35 (1993): 100–114.
45. Prekerowa, Teresa. “The Jewish Underground and the Polish Underground.” Polin: Studies in Polish Jewry, vol. 9 (1996): 148–57.
46. Puławski, Adam, “Postrzeganie zydowskich oddziałów partyzanckich przez Armie Krajowa i Delegature Rzadu RP na Kraj,” Pamiec i Sprawiedliwosc, no. 2 (2003): 271–300
47. Raczy, Elzbieta, Pomoc polakow dla ludnosci zydowskiej na rzeszowszczyznie 1939-1945. Rzeszow: IPN, 2008
48. Redlich, Shimon, ‘Metropolitan Andrei Sheptyts’kyi, Ukrainians and Jews Before, During and After the Holocaust, HGS Vol 5., No.1, 1990, pp.39-51
49. Redlich, Shimon, “Metropolitan Andrei Sheptyts’kyi, Ukrainians and Jews during and after the Holocaust.” In Remembering for the Future. Oxford: Pergamon, 1988. I, 197–206
50. Sakowska, Ruta, „Wiadomości” ARG i raporty o Zagładzie. Status Archiwum Ringelbluma w getcie szczątkowym Warszawy, Kwartalnik Historii Żydów, 2005, Nr 213, pp.30-50
51. Skibińska, Alina and Dariusz Libionka, ‘ “I swear to fight for a free and mighty Poland, carry out the orders of my superiors, so help me God”. Jews in the Home Army. An Episode from Ostrowiec Świętokrzyski’, Holocaust: Studies and Materials, 1/2008, pp.235-269
52. Spector, Shmuel,’Jewish Resistance in Small Towns of Eastern Poland’ in Davies, Norman and Polonsky, Antony (eds), Jews in Eastern Poland and the USSR, 1939-1946. New York, 1991, pp.138-145
53. Tec, Nechama, “Partisan Interconnectedness in Belorussian Forests and the Rescue of Jews by Jews,” in Resisters, Rescuers, and Refugees: Historical and Ethical Issues, John J. Michalczyk, ed. (Kansas City: Sheed and Ward, 1997)
54. Tec, Nechama:When Light Pierced the Darkness – Christian Rescue of Jews in Nazi-Occupied Poland, New York-Oxford 1986.
55. Tiedens, Larissa Z., ‘Optimism and Revolt of the Oppressed: A Comparison of Two Polish Jewish Ghettos of World War II’, Political Psychology, Vol. 18, No. 1 (Mar., 1997), pp. 45-69
56. Tomaszewski, Irene and Werbowski, Tecia, Code Name: Zegota. Rescuing Jews in Occupied Poland, 1942-1945. The Most Dangerous Conspiracy in Wartime Europe. Santa Barbara: Praeger, 2010
57. Trunk, Isaiah, ‘Note: Why Was There No Armed Resistance against the Nazis in the Lodz Ghetto?’, Jewish Social Studies, Vol. 43, No. 3/4 (Summer - Autumn, 1981), pp. 329-334

 

[Border Reiver]

[SNIP]. The impossibilities have been provided over and over and over.

The logistics are not impossible - and the evidence has been provided a number of times. Your refusal to accept it, while distressing, does not affect the reality.

The liars have been exposed over and over and over.

Yes, you have. The very few people who have claimed to be survivors and shown not to be do not disprove the reality of the Holocaust, any more than Sven Hassel's books disprove the reality of German military action in the Second World War

Millions of Jewish people suddenly go missing and there are no millions of outcries.

You really don't get out much do you? Or have you simply chosen to ignore all of it because it contradicts your preferred version of reality?

Today's Holocaust huggers present the Jewish people of that time as lemmings.

As opposed to yourself, Dogzilla and others who present them as either non-existent, or a part of the world's biggest scam.

 

[Belz...]

The Holocaust huggers completely ignore the physical labor the Holocaust lies require.

Only if "ignore" means "address" in your world.

 

[Belz...]

The impossibilities have been provided over and over and over.

Correction: your incredulity has been exposed over and over. Aside from very vague accusation of impossibility, you have done no effort whatsoever to demonstrate that any of this is impossible. When called on it, you simply chuckle and call people liers and huggers and whatever lame insult you can come up with. That does not amount to providing evidence of the impossibility of the Holocaust, Clayton; instead it only provides evidence for your bias and laziness.

 

[000063]

Good work. Who's claim to fame in this world is saying everyone hates them?

That's the opposite of fame. That's infamy. The Nazis are famous because they 1)started a world war, and 2)killed millions of people out of bigotry. People don't just hate them for no reason.

Sounds problematic from the git go.

The Holocaust huggers completely ignore the physical labor the Holocaust lies require. The Holocaust huggers accuse almost every non Jewish organization in Europe of being complicit or of looking the other way while millions Jewish people were allegedly being exterminated.

Lies. That has been explicitly contradicted several times.

[SNIP]. The impossibilities have been provided over and over and over. The liars have been exposed over and over and over. Millions of Jewish people suddenly go missing and there are no millions of outcries.

Today's Holocaust huggers present the Jewish people of that time as lemmings.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed personal comment

And you present the Jews as people who would immediately become murderously angry, yet also be able to communicate the news to each other, and carry out cold-blooded premediated murder. Except the Jewish POWs. Oddly, everyone else in history, even people suffering the similar genocides which you refuse to discuss, would have been cowed by threats.

Of course, given that we've already presented evidence of Jewish resistance, and you just moved goalposts to "all Jews should've resisted", it's clear facts have little bearing on you.

Correction: your incredulity has been exposed over and over. Aside from very vague accusation of impossibility, you have done no effort whatsoever to demonstrate that any of this is impossible. When called on it, you simply chuckle and call people liers and huggers and whatever lame insult you can come up with. That does not amount to providing evidence of the impossibility of the Holocaust, Clayton; instead it only provides evidence for your bias and laziness.

Seconded.

 

[Cyrix686]

Those 57 references dropped off by Dr. Terry should keep Mr. Moore quiet for a while pondering the resistance by the Jews to mass murder.

OTOH, I'm sure that stunning levels of woeful ignorance, sustained attacks taking the form of personal subjective incredulity and deadly assaults disguised as making things up on the spot (Dogzilla - "these people were never there") have damaged the hoax irreparably.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Those 57 references dropped off by Dr. Terry should keep Mr. Moore quiet for a while pondering the resistance by the Jews to mass murder.

OTOH, I'm sure that stunning levels of woeful ignorance, sustained attacks taking the form of personal subjective incredulity and deadly assaults disguised as making things up on the spot (Dogzilla - "these people were never there") have damaged the hoax irreparably.

Most of those people were probably never there.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Most of those people were probably never there.

Which makes what difference to your claim of how the holocaust is presented by "holocaust huggers"?

You made a statement that the jews were PRESENTED as lemmings. How many of the listed authors presented the jews as lemmings?

Being there is not a factor in presentation. There are six million people who were there, but are unable to present themselves in any faashion.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The Holocaust huggers accuse almost every non Jewish organization in Europe of being complicit or of looking the other way while millions Jewish people were allegedly being exterminated.

No, they don't, as Nick's long list proves - and many other previous replies to your lying in this very forum.

In fact, you put forward this bizarre viewpoint yourself, it didn't come from any non-denier:

Ostracizing and threats of death work well 99.44% of the time.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Most of those people were probably never there.

Mr Moore knows better than those taking census data, Nazi nose-counters, and myriads of directories, observations, etc. And so, of course, does Dogzilla: and all the Nazi caterwauling about the Jewish question, Jewish vermin, uninvited guests, wire pullers, and Jewish criminality was just misguided hot air.

 

[Cyrix686]

So Mr. Moore amongst his talents is now a statistician of the period?

 

[Cyrix686]

Mr Moore knows better than those taking census data, Nazi nose-counters, and myriads of directories, observations, etc. And so, of course, does Dogzilla: and all the Nazi caterwauling about the Jewish question, Jewish vermin, uninvited guests, wire pullers, and Jewish criminality was just misguided hot air.

His having any awareness of those things means that he would actually have to read something. He could read the refutations to "one third," instead of probably repeating Dogzilla's crap.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Which makes what difference to your claim of how the holocaust is presented by "holocaust huggers"?

You made a statement that the jews were PRESENTED as lemmings. How many of the listed authors presented the jews as lemmings?

Being there is not a factor in presentation. There are six million people who were there, but are unable to present themselves in any faashion.

Garbage. Nothing but another Holocaust cottage industry.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Garbage. Nothing but another Holocaust cottage industry.

Irrelevent. You stated that "Holocaust Huggers" presented the Jews as Lemmings.

How many of the 57 listed writers presented the Jews as Lemmings?

 

[SanityGap]

Garbage. Nothing but another Holocaust cottage industry.

In that case it should be a simple task to pick just one author from NT's list and refute them point by point.
Take your time, no one expects anything miracles.

 

[LemmyCaution]

His having any awareness of those things means that he would actually have to read something. He could read the refutations to "one third," instead of probably repeating Dogzilla's crap.

Let's allow him to enlighten us as to how many of the works Nick's listed concerning Jewish resistance, along with other histories of the era, he has read, in order to inform his opinion that hoaxsters present Jews as lemmings. And then show us how the authors portray Jews as lemmings.

 

[Clayton Moore]

No, they don't, as Nick's long list proves - and many other previous replies to your lying in this very forum.

In fact, you put forward this bizarre viewpoint yourself, it didn't come from any non-denier:

The difference is obvious. A person can be intimidated by threats of violence. Once the threat is carried out the threat becomes empty and thoughts of revenge take over. And weigh and weigh and weigh and weigh till hell freezes over.

And SNAP.

If the acts of brutality and extermination were not fabrications the camps would have filled with walking potential revenge time bombs. Not only at the camps but where the labor was sent.