Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TheL8Elvis]

[...]
But, I have to make EVERY effort to disengage the fight, and flee.
If I do not, I cannot claim any protection under Florida law.
(Here's the relevant section of FL law. http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/776.041)
See above. You have to meet force with force.

One of the things a little unusual about the Florida law is that a person claiming self defense doesn't have to exhaust all possibilities of escaping or avoiding the danger that justifies his use of deadly force. That's partly what complicated this case. (It's certainly what caused such a long delay in charges being filed.)

It doesn't seem as if both of you can be correct ...

 

[GWCarver]

God made him do it.

I think it is more likely he meant God decided he would live and Trayvon would die.

Reading the MSM, one would think GZ in the only person in the country who thinks God has a plan.

 

[Rare Truth]

I think it is more likely he meant God decided he would live and Trayvon would die.

Reading the MSM, one would think GZ in the only person in the country who thinks God has a plan.

I wonder if the guy who gunned down a theater full of people last night thought it was "God's plan" for him to do so...

 

[Rare Truth]

According to the God planners, if it happened, it must be because He wanted it to happen.

 

[BenBurch]

I think it is more likely he meant God decided he would live and Trayvon would die.

Reading the MSM, one would think GZ in the only person in the country who thinks God has a plan.

Since we have exactly zero evidence leading us to even consider the possibility that a god exists, anybody who thinks that god has a plan is not operating on a rational basis.

 

[Bob001]

It doesn't seem as if both of you can be correct ...

Actually, I'm not sure that there's a conflict. The law refers to what someone "reasonably" believes and his "reasonable" actions (emphasis added):

".... Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;...."
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/776.041

So what's "reasonable" is undefined. It's left to the authorities, and ultimately a jury, to decide. I personally don't think GZ's life was in danger or that it was reasonable for him to think it was (or that it was reasonable for him to be following TM in the first place). He might be able to persuade a jury otherwise.

 

[Bob001]

Since we have exactly zero evidence leading us to even consider the possibility that a god exists, anybody who thinks that god has a plan is not operating on a rational basis.

No god? No plan? You mean I have to start thinking for myself? Bummer!

 

[Dan O.]

Again, RATL was not registered with the National Neighborhood Watch Association.

Maybe their application was rejected because the idiot RATL put in charge insisted on being the macho vigilante running around the neighborhood packing his gun and looking for trouble.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

According to the God planners, if it happened, it must be because He wanted it to happen.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/sybrina-fulton-trayvon-martin_b_1409832.html

She [sybrina fulton] said she was finding comfort in the verse. She does not question God. She was asking for understanding. "At first, I kept on asking why me, why Trayvon. But now I know that God has called Trayvon. He was chosen"

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You've got to think that Angela Corey spent the evening sipping champagne. Wow, what a disaster for George.

A disaster ? I think it went off about as well as could reasonably be expected. No major miscues.

First, he actually says that he wears his gun all the time, every time he goes out, except for work. Really? You mean all those times you went on "patrol" for the neighborhood watch, you carried your gun, George? Against the explicit rules of NW? So even if he claims that THIS time, he was just "on his way to Target", what does he answer to the obvious question...

But Mr. Zimmerman, on those times when you were out on patrol, were you armed then?
Yes sir.
Didn't you know it was forbidden?

So what does he answer, then? How does he explain going out on patrols as neighborhood watch captain, armed? His whole excuse for why he followed Trayvon with a gun was that he carried a gun to the store, not that he went out on armed patrols, which I would hope everyone would agree is reckless for a non-LEO.

His excuse was wasn't patrolling. He had forgotten he was even carrying. He has blown that.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._cyber-citizens-homeowner-crime-watch-members

DeBary resident Jan Bergemann, who operates a homeowner-association watchdog group called Cyber Citizens for Justice, said Retreat at Twin Lakes' association should have issued guidelines that warned crime-watch members against arming themselves when doing anything that might be considered the business of the watch program.

"They should have issued proper guidelines that disallowed members from running around with guns," Bergemann said. "If you don't put out guidelines, you are in deep doo-doo if something happens. ... If the Martin family brings a wrongful-death lawsuit, more or less I think the association will be on the hook."

By the way ... Aren't all residents member of the neighborhood watch ?

Next, he says Trayvon was skipping, and NOT running out of fear. And that he, George, could tell the difference.

But in the Serino interview, he repeatedly says he can't remember HOW Trayvon ran, no matter how many times he was asked. He just couldn't remember. But now he remembers, and wow, it just happens to be something that makes him look innocent, yet again.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/20...ld-know-about-about-trayvon-martin-1995-2012/

16. In a cell phone call moments before his death, Martin told a teenage girl that he was “hounded by a strange man on a cellphone who ran after him, cornered him and confronted him.” “‘He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,’ Martin’s friend said. ‘I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.’

He says clearly that he went over to RVC, knowing it was RVC, only to get an explicit street number, not a street sign. He knew the street name after all? So all he needed was a "1,2,3,4" RVC? Again, picture the cross...

Mr. Zimmerman, you spent 84 seconds on RVC looking for that address. So did you see and address as you stood there for 84 seconds?
No sir.
And you never gave an address to the dispatcher?
No sir.
And why was that?

He didn't go to get an address for the NEN call taker. It was to give them when the police called him back.

He gives the most tortured excuse for not "following".

I understand the difference between following TM to see where he is going and following TM to capture him.

Finally, he says clearly here, again, one punch, broken nose, down to the ground. Does he not realize by this point where the body was found?

I think he is going to claim the fight simply moved along that many feet to the south as it happened.

I think identifying what specifically he was doing that took so long to walk over to RVC to get an address and back and how the fight moved so far south are two issues that cause doubt about his story for me. I don't think it offers any evidence for the prosecution for murder 2, or even for self defensemanslaughter, but it keeps the door open a bit.

 

[GWCarver]

Since we have exactly zero evidence leading us to even consider the possibility that a god exists, anybody who thinks that god has a plan is not operating on a rational basis.

Sounds like you need to get on the phone and make a couple of billion phone calls and let all of the religious people know they are irrational. That should keep you busy for a while. Maybe Rare Truth will pitch in and help.

 

[Dan O.]

He didn't go to get an address for the NEN call taker. It was to give them when the police called him back.

Now it's the dawdling dolt defense. What was George dooing all that time after he got out of his truck while he was still on the phone with the dispatcher? I await seeing your timeline.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Now it's the dawdling dolt defense. What was George dooing all that time after he got out of his truck while he was still on the phone with the dispatcher? I await seeing your timeline.

I don't know. I addressed it though - did you not read my entire post ?

I think identifying what specifically he was doing that took so long to walk over to RVC to get an address and back and how the fight moved so far south are two issues that cause doubt about his story for me. I don't think it offers any evidence for the prosecution for murder 2, or even for manslaughter, but it keeps the door open a bit.

 

[KatieG]

Why should Zimmerman's conscience object to him acting to save his life? The evidence is clear that Martin attacked Zimmerman and did not relent in his attack until the point that Zimmerman was forced to act. There is nothing to apologize for.

The evidence is certainly NOT clear or we wouldn't still be debating what happened that night.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I understand the difference between following TM to see where he is going and following TM to capture him.

You understand it, but even after 400 pages this would appear to be a concept far too difficult to grasp for some, perhaps for them it's on par with grasping string theory.

 

[crimresearch]

Thanks - where are the rules for RATL she got this information from ? Or is Officer Wendy in charge of the RATL neighborhood watch ? I am sure there are documented rules we can refer to, aren't there ? Or are the rules just an oral tradition, passed down by officer Wendy at the meeting ?

Were any of these questions *not* thoroughly answered, complete with links to SPD liason and NW a long time ago? Is there a new issue?

 

[Dan O.]

I don't know. I addressed it though - did you not read my entire post ?

Actually, I only read the next line ans saw you were shifting subjects.

I think identifying what specifically he was doing that took so long to walk over to RVC to get an address and back and how the fight moved so far south are two issues that cause doubt about his story for me. I don't think it offers any evidence for the prosecution for murder 2, or even for manslaughter, but it keeps the door open a bit.

You are assuming that he did take longer than his call with the dispatcher to reach the next street. The possibility remains open and is quite strong that he did reach RVC and saw that Trayvin was not in sight while still on the phone. The claim of looking for an address may simply be George's invention after the fact to cove up that what he was really doing was chasing an unarmed black kid whom he eventually caught, shot and killed.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You are assuming that he did take longer than his call with the dispatcher to reach the next street. The possibility remains open and is quite strong that he did reach RVC and saw that Trayvin was not in sight while still on the phone. The claim of looking for an address may simply be George's invention after the fact to cove up that what he was really doing was chasing an unarmed black kid whom he eventually caught, shot and killed.

I am glad to see you agree with me that none of that offers any evidence for the prosecution for murder 2, or even for manslaughter, but it keeps the door open a bit.

 

[johnny karate]

I understand the difference between following TM to see where he is going and following TM to capture him.

The semantic battle to differentiate "follow" and "pursue" was long and hard-fought. And I believe we all eventually agreed "follow" was the acceptable term.

But now that Zimmerman has decided to walk that admission back after the fact, his faithful defenders have decided "follow" isn't good enough. We must parse even further to retroactively exonerate Zimmerman of any wrongdoing.

Either Zimmerman followed Martin, or he didn't.

Zimmerman wants to claim both depending on the circumstance.

It's sad to see people tie themselves in knots trying to defend a blatant contradiction.

 

[crimresearch]

It doesn't seem as if both of you can be correct ...

But more than one person who is basing their legal opinions on TV and Google, could be wrong simultaneously...