JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[Robert Prey]

I provided evidence of an assigned firearms investigator mis-identifying not one, but three firearms and falsely arresting the individual in possession, and Robert ran away from it like Oswald from the TSBD.

Go back in the thread and look at the pic of the Mauser v. the Carcano.

Easy mistake for the untrained.

No doubt one could mistake a Mauser for a Carcano. But one could hardly mistake the words 'Made Italy, Cal 6.5" for Mauser 7.65.

 

[Robert Prey]

Emphasis on the word "MEDICAL" Mine...


What, no "Medical" Surely this means Robert is already shifting the goal posts from his earlier claim....


Would you care to offer any evidence for the medical qualifications for the names I have highlighted?

As far as I can find, they have none. Which is odd as you claimed there were 40+ MEDICAL witnesses, and when I called you on it you stated my call was baloney because there were more than 40. There are considerably fewer than 40 MEDICAL witnesses on that list, and that is giving you benefit of the doubt and including technicians and photographers as being medically qualified.
34 is not "More than 40".

The list is not of forty medical witnesses but merely 40 witnesses. The word "medical" is your interpolation. Yes, there were indeed 40 plus medical witnesses but this post was merely headed "on the scene witnesses". Your addition of the word "medical" is false. The post title read thusly:

Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,502
O Ye Of Little Faith (and even less scholarship)
Forty Plus On-the-Scene Witnesses, including, but not limited to:

An apology is in order. Would also like to hear any of your own witnesses, medical or otherwise who described a small entry wound in the back of the head, and a large blow-out in the right front -- what the Warren Commission was shown from the Ryberg drawing. (Crickets Chirping).

 

[bynmdsue]

Unless someone who is not Robert wants to discuss the Cuban connection to the assassination which I posted about here, I'm done too.

I like it, it seems plausible.

 

[JayUtah]

The list is not of forty medical witnesses but merely 40 witnesses. The word "medical" is your interpolation.

Liar.

That documentary is a classic example of a Red Herring Diversion. An alleged proof of a single bullet theory has no relation to the fatal shot that blasted the President's head leaving a large blow-out in the back of his head as affirmed by 40 plus onthescene medical witnesses. I've seen a whole lot of documentaries on the subject with the possible exception of "TMWKK" none of them deal with The Very Best Evidence, namely the wound to the head.

 

[JayUtah]

Oh joyous delight, the "blow-out" [sic] issue once again.

And again and again and again. As Walter Ego notes, this will continue ad nauseam. Robert has invoked the "fringe reset" in which he has gone away for a number of weeks to allow the debate to die down. Then he has reappeared and presented the same arguments he has during the previous iterations, unchanged, as if none of the intervening refutation occurred. He wrongly assumes we will not recall his indifference to refutation.

 

[Robert Prey]

Oh joyous delight, the "blow-out" [sic] issue once again.

I'd help all of us a little if you would provide your definition of "blow-out" [sic]. I've asked you numerous times. And though I have no doubt you'll not respond, I'll ask again: With regard to a bullet wound to the body, what is your definition of a resultant "blow-out" [sic]?

When the student is ready the teacher appears. No, I'd rather some of the medical people answer the question in their own words. Take note:

Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding to describe what you did in connection with the tracheostomy, will you more fully describe your observation with respect to the head wound?

Dr. McCLELLAND. As I took the position at the head of the table that I have already described, to help out with the tracheotomy, I was in such a position that I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. It had been shattered, apparently, by the force of the shot so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral haft, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out. There was a large amount of bleeding which was occurring mainly from the large venous channels in the skull which had been blasted open. (6 H 33)

http://www.mtgriffith.com/web_documents/largewound.htm

* * *

Nurse Doris Nelson was the Emergency Room supervisor at the time of the shooting. She assisted in treating the President, and helped prepare his body for placement in the coffin. When asked about one of the autopsy photos which show the back of the head intact, she replied,
"It's not true. . . . There wasn't even hair back there. It was blown away. All that area was blown out"

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=2323.30;wap2

* * *


To the Warren Commission's Arlen Specter, Dr. Jenkins said, "[p]art of the brain was herniated; I really think part of the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound..." (emphasis added) (6WCH 48). Dr. Jenkins also told Specter that the temporal and occipital defect was a wound of exit: "...the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as I interpreted it being exploded, I would interpret it being a wound of exit..." (6WCH 51).
In an interview with the House Select Committee on Assassinations' Andy Purdy on November 10, 1977, Dr. Jenkins was said to have expressed that, as an anesthesiologist, he "...was positioned at the head of the table so he had one of the closest views of the head wound...(and)...(believes he was '...the only one who knew the extent of the head wound.') (sic)...(and) [r]egarding the head wound, Dr. Jenkins said that only one segment of bone was blown out --- it was a segment of occipital or temporal bone. He noted that a portion of the cerebellum (lower rear brain) (sic) was hanging out from a hole in the right-rear of the head" (emphasis added) (7HSCA 286-287).
In an interview with the American Medical News, published on November 24, 1978, Dr. Jenkins said that Kennedy "...had part of his head blown away and part of his cerebellum was hanging out" (emphasis added) (American Medical News 14).

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/16th_issue/mcclelland.html

* * *

Diana Bowron, Parkland Hospital nurse. "There was a gaping wound in the back of his head. It was gone.
Gone. There was nothing there. Just a big gaping hole. There might have been little clumps of scalp, but most
of the bone over the hole, there was no bone there. There was no damage to the front of his face, only wound
in the back of his head and the entry wound in his throat. The wound was so large I could almost put my whole
fist into it."

http://www.jfklancer.com/parkland_drs.html


I trust these representative observations will enlighten you. Otherwise, check with a dictionary.

 

[BStrong]

No doubt one could mistake a Mauser for a Carcano. But one could hardly mistake the words 'Made Italy, Cal 6.5" for Mauser 7.65.

I have produced evidence that an investigator whose actual assignment involves firearms identification batted 0 for 3 in court, and you have not provided any evidence (other than hearsay) that a rifle other than Oswald's was involved.

You have not provided any evidence that any of the officers involved were trained firearms examiners, and you have not provided any evidence that the rifle in question even existed or was entered into evidence - only one rifle was taken into custody and entered into evidence and that's Oswald's Carcano.

You also can not explain the most simple question - namely, if a conspiracy existed with multiple shooters and Oswald was an intended "patsy," why were different rifles/calibers used? what possible purpose, (tactical, strategic or logistic) could be served by using different rifles/calibers?

 

[Robrob]

When the student is ready the teacher appears.

 

[JayUtah]

I know, right? That joke never gets old.

 

[Tomtomkent]

In making a post, or asking a question, it is always wise to try to have a point. That makes it so much more interesting. Surely, you don't dispute the Warren Report. So your point is?????

Er, you didn't seem to take your own advise and make your answer clear. Is the "Warren Report" (by which I assume you might mean the WC Transcripts) your citation for the earliest mention of the words "made in Italy" being stamped on the rifle?


If you try very hard, you might be able to answer a simple question with out making it look asthough you are desperately trying to avoid revealing something that will go against your ideas.

Could somebody, like a witness, perhaps be wrong? Gosh, yes. Might a commission likethe WC decide they were wrong, in the absence of physical evidence? Darn tooting.

Especially on a matter of describing key evidence that SHOULD be documented elsewhere. If the WC is the first time a key identifying feature of an item in evidence is documented, there is something very wrong, and is more likely to be the frailty of human memory (that we know exists) than a super secret conspiracy.

 

[Tomtomkent]

No doubt one could mistake a Mauser for a Carcano. But one could hardly mistake the words 'Made Italy, Cal 6.5" for Mauser 7.65.

No, but they could misremember those words being there when their subconcious is trying to validate a "fact" they half convinced themselves of.


Do you have any image of any other carcano with the stamp?

 

[Tomtomkent]

Baloney. No one on this board has presented a more complete, accurate compilation of medical witnesses. Your alleged debunking has been thoroughly debunked and you know it.

So you are calling your own statement, that you posted a more complete list and the mods took it down, baloney?

Ok.

 

[Tomtomkent]

The list is not of forty medical witnesses but merely 40 witnesses. The word "medical" is your interpolation.

Really, are you sure about that Robert?

An alleged proof of a single bullet theory has no relation to the fatal shot that blasted the President's head leaving a large blow-out in the back of his head as affirmed by 40 plus onthescene medical witnesses. .

And just a reminder how long this has been going on, I chose a page at random, and quoted one of roberts replies there:

The purpose of listing 40 plus on the scene medical witnesses <snip>QUOTE]

This has changed over the thread from 30+ medical staff, 20+ medical staff, ALL the staff at a hospital (yeah, I LOVE that one)...

It's a mixed list. There are many more medical witnesses not on this list. Obviously. I previously attempted to post a more complete list but the moderator deleted it.

Baloney. No one on this board has presented a more complete, accurate compilation of medical witnesses. Your alleged debunking has been thoroughly debunked and you know it.

 

[LSSBB]

When the student is ready the teacher appears.

My dearest hope is that some day soon, you will be ready. Then the teacher will appear, the light will shine from heaven, and the obsession with irrelevant trivia, lumping of unrelated "witnesses" together in one basket, flat out conjecture about photography, and steady diet of baloney sandwiches will come to an end. Until then, it's round and round we go.

In the immortal words of Edith Massey:

"Going nowhere real fast. Hey punk, get off the grass"

(Paraphrased)

 

[BStrong]

No, but they could misremember those words being there when their subconcious is trying to validate a "fact" they half convinced themselves of.

Do you have any image of any other carcano with the stamp?

Exactly.

Like other CT's, half understood "facts" are part of the normal landscape - the JFK assassination being the best example.

 

[infocusinc]

No doubt one could mistake a Mauser for a Carcano. But one could hardly mistake the words 'Made Italy, Cal 6.5" for Mauser 7.65.

Can you produce even ONE image of a rifle bearing these marks? Even ONE?

Evading the question won't make it go away.

Come on Robert, how tough is this, really?

 

[BStrong]

Can you produce even ONE image of a rifle bearing these marks? Even ONE?

Evading the question won't make it go away.

Come on Robert, how tough is this, really?

Here's something else that won't make Robert happy:

"The rifle appeared to be..."

No description of receiver or barrel markings, no note of serial number.

No evidence other than opinion.

 

[Monza]

For those who are interested, here are some quotes from the witnesses in Robert's list. They don't exactly say what Robert thinks they say.



Witnesses at Parkland

1. KEMP CLARK, MD: Professor and Director of Neurological Surgery at Parkland

“Yes, sir.” –Reply to WC testimony question of the autopsy doctors’ opinion that the president’s skull indicated an entry wound at the back of the head and an exit wound at the center of the skull was consistent with his observations at Parkland.

2. ROBERT McCLELLAND, MD:

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the condition of the back of the head?

Dr. McClelland. Well, partially; not, of course, as I say, we did not lift his head up since it was so greatly damaged.

“The way the wound was describe by Mr. Jenkins squares very well with what I saw. I think that the reason my wound [in an earlier drawing] seems lower was because of the hair hanging down over part of it.”

3. MARION THOMAS JENKINS, MD:

In a contemporaneous note dated 11-22-63, Jenkins described "a great laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital) (sic), causing a great defect in the skull plate so that there was herniation and laceration of great areas of the brain, even to the extent that the cerebellum had protruded from the wound." (WC—Exhibit #392) To the Warren Commission's Arlen Specter Dr. Jenkins said, "Part of the brain was herniated; I really think part of the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound..." (WC--V6:48) Jenkins told Specter that the temporal and occipital wound was a wound of exit: "...the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as I interpreted it being exploded, I would interpret it being a wound of exit..." (WC--V6:51.)

"The autopsy photo, with the rear of the head intact and a protrusion in the parietal [side] region, is the way I remember it. I never did say occipital."

4. CHARLES JAMES CARRICO, MD

In an interview with Andy Purdy for the HSCA on 1-11-78, Dr. Carrico said, "The skull wound "...was a fairly large wound in the right side of the head, in the parietal, occipital area. (sic) One could see blood and brains, both cerebellum/and cerebrum fragments in that wound." (sic) (HSCA-V7:268)
On March 5, 1981, C. James Carrico sent a letter to Ben Bradlee (Jr.) of THE BOSTON GLOBE responding to a query from Bradlee. Bradlee had apparently asked him about the standard conspiracist claim that the doctors saw the "back of the head" blown out, and that this contradicted the autopsy photos.

Carrico told Bradlee that:

". . . there is nothing in the pictures and drawings that is incompatible with the injury as I remember it."
"I guess I have to say I was wrong in my Warren Commission testimony on the wound and in some of my pronouncements since then. I just never got that good of a look at it. . . . The truth is there was a massive head wound, with brain tissue and blood around it. And with that type of wound you could not get accurate information unless you feel around inside the hole and look into it in detail, and I certainly didn't do that, nor did I see anyone else do that."

5. MALCOLM PERRY, MD:

"I looked at the head wound briefly by leaning over the table and noticed that the parietal occipital head wound was largely avulsive and there was visible brain tissue in the macard and some cerebellum seen..."

"I don't think any of us got a good look at the head wound…I did not look at it that closely. . . . But like everyone else, I saw it back there. It was in the occipital/parietal area. The occipital and parietal bone join each other, so we are only talking a centimeter or so in difference. And you must remember the President had a lot of hair, and it was bloody and matted, and it was difficult to tell where the wound started or finished."

6. RONALD COY JONES: was a senior General Surgery resident physician

"large side wound, with blood and tissue that extended toward the rear, from what you could tell of the mess that was there."

7. GENE AIKIN, MD: an anesthesiologist at Parkland

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the head wound, Dr. Akin, did you observe below the gaping wound which you have described any other bullet wound in the back of the head?

Dr. AKIN. No; I didn't. I could not see the back of the President's head as such, and the right posterior neck was obscured by blood and skull fragments and I didn't make any attempt to examine the neck.

8. PAUL PETERS, MD: a resident physician

"Looking at these photos, they're pretty much as I remember President Kennedy at the time."

Peters then mentions one minor discrepancy -- a small incision that he believes the autopsy doctors made while removing the brain.

Peters then explained that the "cerebellum" statement shows how "even a trained observer can be wrong." Other evidence, including the testimony of the autopsists and the photos of the brain make it clear that neither Peters nor any of the other doctors could have seen
cerebellum.

". . . I now believe the head wound is more forward than I first placed it. More to the side than the rear."

9. CHARLES CRENSHAW, MD: a resident physician

"Then I noticed that the entire right hemisphere of his brain was missing, beginning at his hairline and extending all the way behind his right ear."

10. CHARLES RUFUS BAXTER, MD: a resident physician

"...the right temporal and parietal bones were missing". (WC-V6:44)

"He had such a bushy head of hair, and blood and all in it, you couldn't tell what was the wound versus dried blood or dangling tissue. I have been misquoted enough on this, some saying I claimed the whole back of his head was blown away. That's just wrong. I never even saw the back of his head. The wound was on the right side, not the back."

11. ROBERT GROSSMAN, MD

There is no evidence that Dr. Grossman was in the trauma room to observe the President’s wounds. He did not file a report as requested of everyone present, and he is not mentioned as being present in anyone else’s report.

12. RICHARD BROOKS DULANEY, MD: was a first year general surgery resident

13. ADOLPH GIESECKE, MD: an assistant professor of anesthesiology

"It seemed that from the vertex to the left ear, and from the browline to the occiput on the left hand side of the head the cranium was entirely missing...”

14. FOUAD BASHOUR, MD: an associate professor of medicine

15. KENNETH EVERETT SALYER, MD: was an intern

16. PAT HUTTON, RN: a nurse

17. SECRET SERVICE AGENT CLINT HILL

“I could see the back of his head and there was a gaping hole above his right ear about the size of my palm.”

18. NURSE DIANA HAMILTON BOWRON


Witnesses at Bethesda


19. GODFREY McHUGH: was President Kennedy's Air Force Aid,

20. JOHN STRINGER: was the autopsy photographer.

Assassination Records Review Board: Did you tell Mr. Lifton that the wound was in the occiput or the occipital region?
Stringer: I don’t remember telling him that, no.
ARRB: Was there a wound in the occipital region of the President?
Stringer: Yes, the entry.
ARRB: By ‘the entry’, you mean what?
Stringer: Where the bullet went.

21. MORTICIAN TOM ROBINSON

22. ROBERT FREDERICK KARNEI, MD: Bethesda pathologist,

23. PAUL KELLY O'CONNOR

24. JAMES CURTIS JENKINS

25. RICHARD A. LIPSEY: an aide to General Wehle

The drawing that Lipsey made for the HSCA in 1978 shows the wound at the side of the head, not the back.

26. EDWARD REED: one of two X-ray technicians

27. JERROL CUSTER: the other X-ray technician

Custer made a drawing for the Assassination Records Review Board and shows the wound at the side of the head, not the back.

28. JAN GAIL RUDNICKI: Dr. Boswell's lab assistant

29. JAMES E. METZLER: was a hospital corpsman

30. JOHN EBERSOLE, MD: was Assistant Chief of Radiology

31, SAUNDRA KAY SPENCER

32. FLOYD RIEBE

33. JAMES C. JENKINS


Witnesses at Dealey Plaza


34.Ken O'Donnell

35. DAVE POWERS

36. Gov. Connally

37. PHIL WILLIS

38. MARILYN WILLIS

39. LINDA WILLIS

40. ROSEMARY WILLIS

41. BEVERLY OLIVER

There's no evidence she was in Dealey Plaza at the time of the shooting or anywhere near enough to see anything of note. These claims are questionable for another reason -- there's no evidence she came forward to tell any story about the assassination until years after the event.

42. ED HOFFMAN

There's no evidence he was in Dealey Plaza at the time of the shooting or anywhere near enough to see anything of note. These claims are questionable for another reason -- there's no evidence he came forward to tell any story about the assassination until years after the event.

Told the FBI he saw two men running from the TSBD then went back to claim he couldn't have because a fence was in the way.

43. BILL NEWMAN

“And then as the car got directly in front of us, well, a gun shot apparently from behind us hit the President in the side, the side of the temple.”
"that is when the third shot was fired and it hit him in the side of the head right above the ear..."

44. GAYLE NEWMAN
"I saw blood all over the side of his head" (Sheriff's office affidavit: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/gnewman.htm)

"he was shot in the head right at his ear or right above his ear. ... The President, his head just seemed to explode, just bits of his skull flew in the air and he fell to the side..." (Shaw testimony: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/newmfsh.htm)

 

[Monza]

Here is a quote from Dr. Cyril Wecht, one of the forensic pathologists on the HSCA. Robert is fond of quoting him due to his conspiracy leanings. But let's see what he says....


From the Rockefeller Commission (Archives Document Record #180-10107-10237 Agency File #002422).

Mr. Olsen: Now, I’m going to ask you whether you have an opinion, based upon a reasonable medical certainty, as to whether any shots were fired at the President from the front or right front that struck him.

Dr. Wecht: No. With reasonable medical certainty, I could not say that a shot had been fired from the front.

 

[Tomtomkent]

I also like how Robert continues to argue the autopsy photos must be innacurrate because Saundra Kaye Spencer, who took the "sanitized" photos said they weren't hers. So the eveidence they are remodelled with morticians wax is because the woman who took the photos of the remodelled head says they WEREN'T hers.

Sane conclusion: The photos which show no signs of tampering, and can be traced to the autopsy, are the original "unsanitized" versions. Especially with the lack of testemony to the effect of the wounds being "wrong".

Roberts conclusion: They must be a whole different faked set.

oy vey.